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King Crimson776 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2009 at 20:47
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Rather, Indie for a lot of people is a musical philosophy, one that's not all that different from prog's main philosophy. Making music that doesn't conform to the mainstream, traditional music structures or methods, music that challenges the listener and blends various styles to create something unique. Indie just takes that philosophy in a completely different direction.
What direction exactly? I'm asking because I'm curious... you're saying they both have the philosophy of challenging the listener, blending styles, etc. but what is the distinction? Is it really that indie is more minimalist and lyric oriented and prog is more complex and music oriented? That might be it... but I don't really find indie to be challenging in any way, just bad for the most part, but whatever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2009 at 03:52
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Rather, Indie for a lot of people is a musical philosophy, one that's not all that different from prog's main philosophy. Making music that doesn't conform to the mainstream, traditional music structures or methods, music that challenges the listener and blends various styles to create something unique. Indie just takes that philosophy in a completely different direction.


That makes it kinda funny that you mentioned Flaming Lips as an example of indie because I think they belong here based on the one album of theirs I've heard, Clouds Taste Metallic. It reminded me a lot of Syd Barrett-era Pink Floyd except more amateurish and lo-fi. Tongue

Didn't submit them, though, I figure they're well known enough to have been submitted and rejected, possibly because of the whole "more amateurish" issue. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2009 at 06:33
Rock music will become much more niche market. Artists we listen to, mainstream or not, have much more varied influences in their music nowadays than compared to the past. There are a plethora of more music genres nowadays and musically, everyone in every field is much more open to experimentation than in the past. Music is becoming more and more varied. Rock music is evolving into a different stage, much like how classical music has gone through different stages (Baroque, Romantic, Neo-Classical), Rock music as a whole is old enough and mature enough to be evolving into a different stage...

...When I say rock music, I mean pretty much all popular music, because it's been influenced by, one way or another, the rock music and musicians of the past.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2009 at 08:23
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Rather, Indie for a lot of people is a musical philosophy, one that's not all that different from prog's main philosophy. Making music that doesn't conform to the mainstream, traditional music structures or methods, music that challenges the listener and blends various styles to create something unique. Indie just takes that philosophy in a completely different direction.
What direction exactly? I'm asking because I'm curious... you're saying they both have the philosophy of challenging the listener, blending styles, etc. but what is the distinction? Is it really that indie is more minimalist and lyric oriented and prog is more complex and music oriented? That might be it... but I don't really find indie to be challenging in any way, just bad for the most part, but whatever.
 
The distinction is the approach. Like you said, indie tends to be miminalistic in nature, it draws a bit more towards pop structure, but without being pop itself. And most indie bands draw influence from avant garde, punk, new wave, electronica, free jazz and American folk music as opposed to the more sophisticated classical, jazz, european folk and psychedelic influences of prog.
 
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Rather, Indie for a lot of people is a musical philosophy, one that's not all that different from prog's main philosophy. Making music that doesn't conform to the mainstream, traditional music structures or methods, music that challenges the listener and blends various styles to create something unique. Indie just takes that philosophy in a completely different direction.


That makes it kinda funny that you mentioned Flaming Lips as an example of indie because I think they belong here based on the one album of theirs I've heard, Clouds Taste Metallic. It reminded me a lot of Syd Barrett-era Pink Floyd except more amateurish and lo-fi. Tongue

Didn't submit them, though, I figure they're well known enough to have been submitted and rejected, possibly because of the whole "more amateurish" issue. LOL
 
That's a fantastic album. Flaming Lips do embrace psychedelic and prog influences (including Pink Floyd and Yes) and Yoshimi is especially proggy. But they started out as a very punk influenced indie band and associated themselves more with Sonic Youth and Dinosaur Jr than say Spocks Beard or The Flower Kings. LOL
 
They didn't really show their proggy side until Clouds, and they had already been around for a good while and with a loyal following at that point.


Edited by boo boo - April 28 2009 at 08:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2009 at 17:16
There's definatly contradictory trends going on.

Guitar hero seems to have produced a small classic rock revival, at least at some universities in the UK. While not progressive, there is always the hope it might develop in that direction.

From what limited exposure I have it seems that indie (and by that I refer to smaller bands) music songs are becoming slightly more about telling little stories. No sure if this is positive or negative. But equally the music is becoming softer and less guitar or even keyboard based (they are present, but just background). Sadly there seems to be similar tendencies within modern prog - bands, that despite redeeming factors, also seem to be following this route in the prog scene include The Tangent and Beardfish. Sadly even the re-incarnation of what was the best semi-mainstream prog band, Van Der Graaf Generator, had a boring album of modern lifes problems (call me orthodox but cell phones do not belong in prog rock lyrics).

Within the prog scene there is some interesting developments though. Phideaux seems to me the best 'new' band in years, they have a quite original concept, the music is dark and symphonic and the lyrics are a metaphor rather than directly about the real world.

Sadly I think we are a long way away from seeing anything like the 70s scene, at least not the more interesting things that came out of it, such as Island.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by trotskyite trotskyite wrote:

Guitar hero seems to have produced a small classic rock revival, at least at some universities in the UK. While not progressive, there is always the hope it might develop in that direction.
There have always been a lot of teenagers and other people into "classic rock". Guitar Hero has nothing to do with it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2009 at 14:36
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by trotskyite trotskyite wrote:

Guitar hero seems to have produced a small classic rock revival, at least at some universities in the UK. While not progressive, there is always the hope it might develop in that direction.
There have always been a lot of teenagers and other people into "classic rock". Guitar Hero has nothing to do with it.
 
I'm sorry but Guitar Hero disgusts me...it never ceases to include amazing songs amongst a pile of filth

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2009 at 21:58

So you frown upon guitar hero because it has a diverse setlist?

It's guitar hero. Not classic rock guitar hero. It's good that they have something to please everybody. I don't think the designers expect anyone to like EVERY song on the setlist.
 
Plus, I find the setlists on the guitar hero games to actually be pretty solid, save the crappy hair metal and metalcore that's thrown in.
 
Any setlist that includes The Dead Kennedys or Butthole Surfers is alright by me.


Edited by boo boo - April 29 2009 at 22:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 02:39
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Rock, or rock n roll, will never die.


A funny idea, really, when you consider that ALL OTHER musical genres have died. There's no one around composing new and exciting music in the styles of JS Bach, Ludwig Van, Gustav Mahler, Louis Armstrong or Duke Ellington. You might say that "modern jazz" (the sort of thing that started with Miles Davis and Charlie Parker) lives on (after all, even Bill Bruford has released excellent albums in that tradition) but it's a bit like rock, really: it's carried on by academicians, people who don't really have revolutionary ideas.

Personally, I can't wait for rock to die, since I'm very curious to see what'll happen when electric guitars, basses and drums are finally ditched. But I don't expect to see that kind of change within my lifetime. After all, look at the old baroque style (in music): it gradually evolved, yes, but it was vibrantly alive for more than 100 years. And even when it disappeared, it morphed more or less naturally into the styles of Haydn, Gluck and Mozart. Sometimes I think nothing short of a TREMENDOUS CATACLYSM will rid us of rock 'n' roll.

Funny situation, that. Whenever I go out on the street, I hear the Beatles, the Bee Gees, ELO, Abba, Blondie etc. etc. Tunes that are half a century old, yet no-one seems to mind. My kids (all three of them teenagers) listen to present-day bands, but they also have Elvis, the Beach Boys and the Bangles in their MP3s. It's pick-and-mix culture. When I grew up, in the 1970s, all the bands we listened to were brand-new (or the great bands from the mid-1960s onwards). Elvis and Buddy Holly just seemed frightfully OLD HAT and it wouldn't have OCCURRED to us to play music that was 4 decades old... (Count Basie? Frank Sinatra? Caruso??? )
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 16:33
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

So you frown upon guitar hero because it has a diverse setlist? When that setlist is mediocre at times: yes

It's guitar hero. Not classic rock guitar hero. It's good that they have something to please everybody. I don't think the designers expect anyone to like EVERY song on the setlist. I never expressed the desire to want it to be classic rock guitar hero. Personally, if I want to listen to a song that pleases me I am not going to go play it on Rock Band or Guitar Hero; I'm going to listen to it on my own time. The entire philosophy of the game pollutes the experience that is truly listening to music; sadly in this day and age, true appreciation for music is rare.
 
ITunes had a song from Guitar Hero like 'Can't You Hear Me Knocking' on album only; buyers didn't care about the rest of Sticky Fingers- inarguarable one of the Stones' best recordings. They just wanted that one song, completely ignorant to the fact that the rest of the album is equally good. The game seems to narrow people's focus and seems to spoon-feed people into what is good in the rock genre. Many times, this is far from the case, and other times they do a fine job. That and its balls to the wall 'rock has to be hard' attitude are my problems with Guitar Hero 
 
Plus, I find the setlists on the guitar hero games to actually be pretty solid, save the crappy hair metal and metalcore that's thrown in. I can't stand those either LOL
 
Any setlist that includes The Dead Kennedys or Butthole Surfers is alright by me.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 21:39
Quote It's guitar hero. Not classic rock guitar hero. It's good that they have something to please everybody. I don't think the designers expect anyone to like EVERY song on the setlist. I never expressed the desire to want it to be classic rock guitar hero. Personally, if I want to listen to a song that pleases me I am not going to go play it on Rock Band or Guitar Hero; I'm going to listen to it on my own time. The entire philosophy of the game pollutes the experience that is truly listening to music; sadly in this day and age, true appreciation for music is rare.
Hahahahaha, I wish I could express to you how ridiculous you are, but words fail me. IT IS JUST A GAME! It is not a big deal!
Quote  ITunes had a song from Guitar Hero like 'Can't You Hear Me Knocking' on album only; buyers didn't care about the rest of Sticky Fingers- inarguarable one of the Stones' best recordings. They just wanted that one song, completely ignorant to the fact that the rest of the album is equally good. The game seems to narrow people's focus and seems to spoon-feed people into what is good in the rock genre.  
You're killing me, man, haven't you ever heard of singles before? And music magazines?


Edited by Henry Plainview - April 30 2009 at 21:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2009 at 02:13
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Hahahahaha, I wish I could express to you how ridiculous you are, but words fail me.


Aren't you being a little harsh? Guy's just expressing a reasonable view...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2009 at 14:37
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Hahahahaha, I wish I could express to you how ridiculous you are, but words fail me. IT IS JUST A GAME! It is not a big deal! Well, I do feel quite ridiculous right now. Wacko
The music was originally created for a different purpose, however vague and intangible. To say music has become a luxury in this day and age is not far from the truth. Sorry, but I prefer Tiger Woods' 05 when it comes to games...
 
You're killing me, man, haven't you ever heard of singles before? And music magazines? Are we taking about singles on E-Harmony or Match.com?
 
As for music magazines, I've bought one in my entire life...I'd rather not read another
 
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 01:06
Originally posted by mr.cub mr.cub wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Hahahahaha, I wish I could express to you how ridiculous you are, but words fail me. IT IS JUST A GAME! It is not a big deal! Well, I do feel quite ridiculous right now. Wacko
The music was originally created for a different purpose, however vague and intangible. To say music has become a luxury in this day and age is not far from the truth. Sorry, but I prefer Tiger Woods' 05 when it comes to games...
 
You're killing me, man, haven't you ever heard of singles before? And music magazines? Are we taking about singles on E-Harmony or Match.com?
 
As for music magazines, I've bought one in my entire life...I'd rather not read another

So what if the music was created for a different purpose? I doubt the Rolling Stones are upset that their music is being enjoyed in a different manner--isn't the enjoyment what's important?

Music has always been a luxury, when was it otherwise?

Dodging the point with a joke won't help you.

Good for you, but the fact remains that music magazines exist, and they shape the readers' opinions in a much more direct way that Guitar Hero setlist choices, so don't act as if people being sheep (or people like us perceiving others as sheep) is anything new.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 03:53
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Music has always been a luxury, when was it otherwise?


Music has not always been a commodity. It HAS always been intimately connected with rituals which express the deepest desires of mankind.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


So what if the music was created for a different purpose? I doubt the Rolling Stones are upset that their music is being enjoyed in a different manner--isn't the enjoyment what's important? I doubt they care if they are making money; but doesn't that seem like an issue when looking at the original context of making music for music's sake: not for money.

Music has always been a luxury, when was it otherwise?Anytime before music could be recorded. Today, music is at anyones fingertips and they are exposed to it more than ever. Would you enjoy something like say the stars to a much higher degree if they only came out once a month? Certainly. The fact that they come out every night certainly lessens the effect on an apathetic individual. The same thing with music; there was a time when people sat down and listened to music. Today, its simply background noise for the majority people as they go about their daily routine.
 
 

Dodging the point with a joke won't help you. Oh well, it wasn't like the question was serious...apparently I was killing you with my naivety

Good for you, but the fact remains that music magazines exist, and they shape the readers' opinions in a much more direct way that Guitar Hero setlist choices, so don't act as if people being sheep (or people like us perceiving others as sheep) is anything new.


Edited by mr.cub - May 02 2009 at 18:29

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 02:12
And how does using it in a different context compromise the integrity of the music itself? The game is still music for music's sake.
 
And before music was recorded, only rich people could afford to go hear the orchestras play Beethoven's new composition, which made it even more of a luxury than it is today. I accept your point about overexposure, but you are vastly overstating its impact. More people love music now that they can listen to it whenever they want and get gigs of it for free from the internet. Although this is tangential to both luxury and Guitar Hero, unless you are operating on a very different definition of the word...
 
I'm as serious as cancer. Stern Smile
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Music has always been a luxury, when was it otherwise?

Music has not always been a commodity. It HAS always been intimately connected with rituals which express the deepest desires of mankind.
That is true, but I think ritual music has a completely different purpose and so is removed from the discussion. He is talking about sitting down and listening to music, which is inherently a luxury. Only the relatively wealthy have the means to devote a significant amount of time to music soley for relaxation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 11:05
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

And how does using it in a different context compromise the integrity of the music itself? The game is still music for music's sake. I would like to know if you like Guitar Hero, if you don't kudos to you; you play a hell of a Devil's advocate.ClapAngry
 
As for the ingegrity of the music itself...well, it is the listener's interaction with the music- its not as if someone is reading sheet music and producing the sound from one's instrument; the intended sound already exists and whether one hits the right combination of 5 buttons determines whether the song comes out in carbon copy or not. It is essentially one playing along to a CD and determining what the CD produces. Now is when you may throw the gauntlet down and ask 'what is the difference between that and listening to a CD' and break my spirit.LOL
 
It is just a game, yes, and a nice way to expose people to new music, but I just never was attracted to it (and I played one of them through). I just feel it leads people to not understanding and appreciating the music fully; thus, when they hear a song from the game in a different context, they aren't thinking 'Wow what incredible depth and texture, or this makes me feel depressed" but rather "Yeah this is on Guitar Hero."
 
And before music was recorded, only rich people could afford to go hear the orchestras play Beethoven's new composition, which made it even more of a luxury than it is today. I accept your point about overexposure, but you are vastly overstating its impact. More people love music now that they can listen to it whenever they want and get gigs of it for free from the internet. Although this is tangential to both luxury and Guitar Hero, unless you are operating on a very different definition of the word...
I probably didn't word something properly Embarrassed
I was looking at it more as a luxury one takes for granted. I do agree with the statement about the aristocrats having the luxury of getting sole exposure to the music (was thinking about that myself). But even lower classes had similar exposure to music, albeit in a much different way. I would think this is the origin of folk music and the like.
 
 
I'm as serious as cancer. Stern Smile Me too...LOL
 
 


Edited by mr.cub - May 03 2009 at 11:05

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2009 at 03:52

I love music.As for the ingegrity of the music itself...well, it is the listener's interaction with the music....

/admin  edit - spam removed




Edited by Dean - May 04 2009 at 04:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2009 at 08:38
Originally posted by spookytooth spookytooth wrote:

Rock music will become much more niche market. Artists we listen to, mainstream or not, have much more varied influences in their music nowadays than compared to the past. There are a plethora of more music genres nowadays and musically, everyone in every field is much more open to experimentation than in the past. Music is becoming more and more varied. Rock music is evolving into a different stage, much like how classical music has gone through different stages (Baroque, Romantic, Neo-Classical), Rock music as a whole is old enough and mature enough to be evolving into a different stage...

...When I say rock music, I mean pretty much all popular music, because it's been influenced by, one way or another, the rock music and musicians of the past.


Do you honestly believe that modern artists are more adventurous than they were in the past ? This beggars belief surely ? We live in the most conservative and conformist age that music has ever gone through since the 50's ! They didn't come up the name 'underground' by accident as the greatest progress that has been made in popular music happened when the so-called niche esoteric markets became mainstream i.e. progs golden years from 69 to 75 and post punk from 78 to circa 81. (When the money men were convinced their investment would bring a return).
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