Jimi Hendrix added to proto-prog

M@x has requested that Jimi Hendrix be added to proto-prog.

Text for introducing Jimi Hendrix to proto-prog:

A couple months ago I found out that M@x had approved Jimi Hendrix for proto-prog, but he was still looking for someone to present him to the site. I’m not a Hendrix ‘fan-boy’, but based on my recollections of that time period, I had always thought that The Jimi Hendrix Experience (Mitch Mitchell is a huge influence on early progressive rock too) was a big part of that early scene from which progressive rock developed.

Vague recollections aren’t good enough for musicology, so I dug up some old Experience records and gave them a spin. I also revisited a lot of other records from that period, particularly The Nice, Procol Harum, The Moody Blues, Deep Purple and The Soft Machine. I also reread the bios I own that cover the early careers of Pink Floyd and Robert Wyatt in which Hendrix is constantly mentioned in gigs and tours with Pink Floyd, Soft Machine and The Nice as well as jam sessions, and various unreleased demos with Robert Wyatt and others. But it’s certainly not enough that Hendrix’s social life revolved around those who were breaking the boundaries of rock, what about his music.

Based on the music I listened to, and also based on the accounts of Jimi’s early music career from the viewpoint of Robert Wyatt and others, it became obvious to me that the Jimi Hendrix Experience was very much an integral part of that early proto-progressive rock scene based in England that included, but is not limited to: The Beatles, The Moody Blues, The Move, Procol Harum, Soft Machine, The Nice, Deep Purple and Pink Floyd. If you read interviews with any of those previously mentioned artists during that time period, they are more than enthusiastic about Hendrix’s huge impact on their music. In fact, except for maybe The Beatles, you will not find an artist mentioned more often as an influence on early progressive rockers and jazz fusionists including: Keith Emerson, Ian Anderson, Robert Fripp, Pete Townsend, Miles Davis, Jon McLaughlin, Carlos Santana, Ritchie Blackmore, Jon Lord and others.

In very early 1968 when Electric Ladyland and Axis Bold as Love had already been released, songs like Aint No Tellin, Burning of the Midnight Lamp and 1983 … Moon Turns the Tides placed The Jimi Hendrix Experience in the forefront along side Procol Harum, The Nice and others as far as stretching the boundaries of rock via complex and/or lengthy developed rock compositions.

Also, as far as a live presentation of a rock performance goes circa 67-68, the lengthy improvisations that Hendrix and Mitchell would indulge in (while ‘out-of-his-league’ bassist Noel Redding hung on for dear life) were way ahead of fellow early rock bands in terms of instrumental technique, creative ideas and sonic presentation, except for possibly Deep Purple, Soft Machine and a few others.
   


Here are some various issues that arise when discussing Hendrix’s proto-progressive rock credentials:


RnB background: Some people claim that Jimi’s background in RnB detracts from his ‘prog credentials’. What is interesting to notice is that almost every proto-prog band had a background in RnB or blues including The Beatles, The Nice, The Moody Blues, The Who, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple and others.

What about Cream: I don’t think Cream released any songs that were as progressive as 1983 … Moon Turns the Tides, Ain’t no Tellin, Burning of the Midnight Lamp and Third Stone from the Sun. I also think that Mitch and Jimi’s ability to really take flight in an improvisation surpassed what Clapton and Baker were capable of. It is too bad that Jack Bruce could not have been a member of The Experience.

Wasn’t Jimi a blues guitarist? : Lots of guitar players can play the blues. Did you know that in the entire 3 album discography of The Experience there is only one blues song repeated twice on Electric Ladyland. The first Experience album is pure British pop-rock with psychedelic and progressive tendencies. The next two albums start to show more of Jimi’s American roots, while also becoming more progressive. It is not until 1969 when Jimi joins with Buddy Miles that he becomes known as a blues guitarist.

What happened to Jimi and prog rock: In early 1968 the Experience stood shoulder to shoulder with the other creators of proto-prog when all of a sudden Jimi dropped his British affectations and went totally American blues-rock with Buddy Miles. While Jimi stepped back into his roots, progressive rock moved on to greater complexity with the arrival of King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis and others. By the time we hit 69-70, Hendrix and progressive rock seem worlds apart.

Blue collar American voice: I think one of the main reasons that Hendrix doesn’t sound like proto-prog to some folks is his blue collar American vocal delivery. If you took those same Experience songs and topped them with a British art school voice The Experience would have been one of the first bands added to this PA data base.

Mitch Mitchell: The nice thing about bringing Hendrix onto the proto-prog section of PA is that Mitchell comes with him. It is hard for me to think of a more influential early progressive drummer except for maybe Elvin Jones, Buddy Rich or Robert Wyatt. When you listen to early Bill Bruford, Michael Giles, Clive Bunker and others you are hearing Mitchell’s jazz affected style.

It’s a generational thing: Judging from conversations I have had on this site, most people over 50 readily recognize Jimi as a proto-prog rocker, while younger folks seem a little more resistant to the idea. I really think to understand what a hugely revolutionary impact Hendrix had on the world of rock, you just had to be there. For a lot of us there was mundane rock before Hendrix, and then this explosion of expression and creativity after Hendrix. Certainly he is not the only one to spark this creativity, but the word-of-mouth buzz about his concerts amongst the youth of the day was surpassed by no one. Many of the older teenagers and 20-somethings that I knew would say things like you haven’t heard real rock until you have heard Hendrix.

5th member of The Soft Machine: Did you know that in the early days of The Soft Machine Jimi would often fill in on bass for gigs and recording sessions so that Kevin Ayers could play guitar. Jimi and Robert Wyatt jammed and recorded together often and Robert provides back-up vocals on a couple of Experience tunes including Think We Better Wait till Tomorrow.

EL&M: Did you know that Mitch Mitchell was Emerson and Lake’s first choice for their new trio. Things didn’t work out and Mitch said that Jimi might be interested, Keith was flattered but realized with he and Jimi in the same band the universe might explode.



PLEASE DO NOT ADD ANY BOOTLEGS TO THE HENDRIX DISCOGRAPHY


Edited by Easy Money - April 10 2009 at 13:19

Excellent!  I always felt that Hendrix should be here (and Cream too, since Cream is mentioned in the post).

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all. But now he's added, nothing can be done so i will say nothing more about him as i always do. Iván   Please, don't even dream in Cream

Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all."
Of course.
Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: ... [snip] Please, don't even dream in Cream

Creamy dreams are the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NSB-wKYL4w

Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all." Of course. Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.

1. I believe Proto Prog is underrated in this site, Proto Prog is already Prog, has most of the elements required and people place it in the same level as prog Related, honestly I would feel much more comfortable or better said less uncomfortable with Jimmy in Prog Related
2. The phrase: "Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy" is what is called a "Reductio ad absurdum" (Reduction to absurdity), because this is a Prog site, saying, "we add non prog artists to Prog Related or proto Prog and it's no problem because those are not prog genres, open the doors for anything to be added, people could say, lets add Michael Jackson to Prog Related, he's not Prog and Prog Related is not a prog genre.  I believe an artist is added for his composition to a prog sub-genre if he's a Prog artist and to a Non Prog sub-genre if he's related to Prog in an important degree.
3. I don't believe Jimmy Hendrix's music has ANY connection with Prog, hence, he should not be in prog Archives.

But he's been added and by order of the boss, so no more will be said by me about him.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 10 2009 at 13:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Petrovsk Mizinski wrote: Amusing how literally 2 posts after my post about saying how older members would be worried about this and how clearly he wasn't even added to a prog genre you state "I absollutely disagree, his compositions are not Prog at all." Of course. Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy.   The last post about this issue:   I believe Proto Prog is underrated in this site, Proto Prog is already Prog, has most of the elements required and people place it in the same level as prog Related, honestly I would feel much more comfortable or better said less uncomfortable with Jimmy in Prog Related The phrase: "Hence why he wasn't even added to a prog genre. That's why we have proto prog and prog related buddy" is what is called a "Reductio ad absurdum" (Reduction to absurdity), because this is a Prog site, saying, "we add non prog artists to Prog Related or proto Prog and it's no problem because those are not prog genres, open the doors for anything to be added, people could say, lets add Michael Jackson to Prog Related, he's not Prog and Prog Related is not a prog genre.  I believe an artist is added for his composition to a prog sub-genre if he's a Prog artist and to a Non Prog sub-genre if he's related to Prog in an important degree. I don't believe Jimmy Hendrix's music has ANY connection with Prog, hence, he should not be in prog Archives. But he's been added and by order of the boss, so no more will be said by me about him. But please let's stop this phrase "It's no problem if he's not prog because Prog Related is not prog either", because to be in Prog Archives, we need a significative connection with Progressive Rock.   Iván

Okay, fair enough, you don't agree with his addition, to some extent I can sympathize but like you I understand it's not my call or yours either as you said.
But when you say "We need significant connection with Progressive Rock", to what extent is "significant"?
Is "significant" concrete in this context or subject to opinion?
I don't believe either Iron Maiden or Jimi Hendrix have "Significant" connections to Progressive rock and a lot of other people seem to think so too.
This tells me, in order to be placed in the prog related or proto prog genres, an artist does not need a significant connection to prog rock, but a connection to a certain extent which is not necessarily "significant" to be eligble for addition. That seems fair, no?

Jimi Hendrix's inclusion in Proto prog is long overdue in my opinion , as much of his music and ideas influenced so many Prog artists in the 60's and beyond. I would be happy to be of assistance to whoever does the bio and discography

M@x has requested Hendrix's addition, and he is the owner of the site - without him and his work, we wouldn't be here. He has the right to make his wishes known, and we should appreciate the fact that he doesn't add artists himself, but asks first. Therefore, if we can't live with the fact that he might every now and then ask for a  band or artist that we don't consider prog to be added, I'm afraid there is nothing else to be done but leave. No use in tearing each other apart, or trying to prove a point after the fact.

Raff wrote: M@x has requested Hendrix's addition, and he is the owner of the site - without him and his work, we wouldn't be here. He has the right to make his wishes known, and we should appreciate the fact that he doesn't add artists himself, but asks first. Therefore, if we can't live with the fact that he might every now and then ask for a  band or artist that we don't consider prog to be added, I'm afraid there is nothing else to be done but leave. No use in tearing each other apart, or trying to prove a point after the fact.

So if someone doesn't like M@X's decisions, they just shouldn't question it? Of course, obviously the Hendrix addition cannot be changed by any of our opinions, but if someone feels they disagree, they should feel they are in the clear to be able to say so.

As Ib said before, no more talk about Jimmi from Me,