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Topic ClosedDownloading

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Poll Question: Is it right to download music for free without the artist's consent?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
13 [22.41%]
24 [41.38%]
4 [6.90%]
17 [29.31%]
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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 10:18
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

You clearly weren't alive in the 70s - there's far less prog music around now. Music is not thriving.

Speaking as someone who was I don't find there's less around now unless you have a very narrow definition of what is prog.  As to whether or not music is thriving, I dunno.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 10:07
I use too many music sites already, sorry man.

I rate them all at RYM, though.  Don't have the time/desire to rate them all at two different places.

And I only have the 75tracks/month plan, unfortunately.  At some point, hopefully, I'll upgrade.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 10:03
^ I'd be glad if you rated them at PF ... that way I'll eventually discover them too (and add the link to emusic to the album). BTW: I currently have 130 albums on the save for later list - and I'm already on the 100 tracks/month subscription.Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:52
Don't take it too seriously, I just found it ironic.

I'm an avid emusic user, and I currently have 62 albums in my save for later, which should last me about 9 months (and that's ignoring all the albums that will get added to the list as I discover new bands that pique my interest).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:47
^ sorry about that ... haven't seen the message for quite some time at eMusic.com, but sometimes the artists/record companies are tied to national contracts. But I'm still quite sure that you'll find something in their database that you can download ... I guess you also know the chart at Progfreak.com, there you can also browse by emusic.com availability.Smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 15 2009 at 09:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:44
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

http://www.emusic.com/album/Subterranean-Masquerade-Suspended-Animation-Dreams-MP3-Download/11383478.html

There's no excuse for not downloading legally! Big smile




Wink


Edited by Pnoom! - February 15 2009 at 09:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:40
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Pnoom! Pnoom! wrote:

The idea that it's killing music, however, is just foolish.  There's more music now than ever beforeMusic is obviously thriving, not dying.


You clearly weren't alive in the 70s - there's far less prog music around now. Music is not thriving. And copyright infringement IS stealing by any logic you can invoke; you take something and don't pay for it.


There's also far less classic rock.  And far less classic punk.  And far less jazz.  And far less romantic classical.  Etc.

That's not a function of illegal downloading, that's a function of those genres going out of style.  There was far less prog music in the 80s than in the 70s, but there was no illegal downloading then.

"Music isn't thriving" in no way follows from "prog isn't thriving."

If you look outside of prog, music IS thriving (by any logic you can invoke).

I'm pretty sure stealing requires depriving somebody of something they wouldn't otherwise have, which downloading doesn't do.  And if illegal downloading does qualify as stealing, then all that indicates is that our definition of stealing is too broad and covers more than it ought to, because illegal downloading is a world removed from stealing a hard copy of a CD.


Edited by Pnoom! - February 15 2009 at 09:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:36
Originally posted by Trouserpress Trouserpress wrote:

When I was a student I had literally no other means of experiencing new music than to download it. I could only just cover my bills and had nothing spare to dish out on CDs. As a result of the bands I discovered through this means (most notably Cardiacs) I have subsequently spent a great many pounds on seeing them perform live. That's money I would not have spent had I not downloaded albums by them.

Personally, mp3s aren't enough. The money I HAVE spent on CDs (when I can afford to) usually goes on albums I already "own" in mp3 format. I'm sure the same goes for a lot of other illegal downloaders like myself.


This pretty much applies to me.

I buy about 10 Cds a month.  7 or so are from emusic, and then I buy 2-3 albums (always ones that I've already downloaded).

When there are alternatives to downloading (such as free streaming on last.fm; I've got a long list of albums I'm interested in that are available free on there), I use those.

As it stands, though, music is currently one of the few industries where a great many artists don't allow you to "test-drive" (so to speak) the entire product.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:36
Originally posted by Pnoom! Pnoom! wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ What I often experienced is that those who engage in illegal downloading often get angry when others refer to it as "stealing".


But that's what it is when you take something from someone without their permission.  Which is why its important to call it that.  Why sugarcoat it? 

If they can't handle people calling them on it, the obvious action is to stop, not to worry about the term. Wink


Except that it's not stealing.  The artist has lost nothing.

It's copyright infringement.

As for whether it's right or not, I've seen and made good arguments in both directions.

The idea that it's killing music, however, is just foolish.  There's more music now than ever beforeMusic is obviously thriving, not dying.


You clearly weren't alive in the 70s - there's far less prog music around now. Music is not thriving. And copyright infringement IS stealing by any logic you can invoke; you take something and don't pay for it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:33
Originally posted by progaeopteryx progaeopteryx wrote:

I don't really have any significant comments to say about downloading in general. About the closest I can come to downloads is listening to streaming samples from an artist's web page, just to see if I like their music before considering a CD purchase.

On another issue, I don't understand listeners that prefer downloads over actually having the CD. It seems like they aren't getting the full artistic effect of what the artist was trying to get at. Instead it would appear to me they are only getting a fragmented picture of the artist's message or intentions. An album is just not the same to me if it isn't listened as a whole, with the visual experience of the insert artwork (this was an especially better experience in the days of vinyl). And for audiophiles, it's a better listening experience than a compressed mp3 file.

My only problem nowadays is that I wish I could buy more CDs than the handful I have done over the last two years, but economic times aren't what they used to be. Clearly, big tax cuts for filthy rich people don't do a bit of good, but that's another argument for another thread.

Streaming is one of the best ways to gin up interest in your band these days.  Those who want to enjoy music without paying for it should take advantage of that.  When I was a young 'un we had this here thing called the radio, sure it had commercials, but we liked it, well not all that much.  College radio stations were always the best to encounter stuff you hadn't heard before. 

Totally addicted to hard copies and love albums with good cover and/or booklet art, particularly lyrics in print for the vocal artists.  I have cut down on new acquisitions, too.  Partly for economical reasons, partly for space reasons.  As you can see I can't possibly fit much more music into my signature.  V LOL


Edited by Slartibartfast - February 16 2009 at 05:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:31
Originally posted by Sckxyss Sckxyss wrote:

Option 2. If the only way you can get an album is by forking out $40+ on ebay or Gemm, the artist isn't getting anything for it either way, so there's no point IMO (unless you want the hard copy). Otherwise, I think it's important that the artists get paid for what they're doing. 


Unless you buy directly from the copyright holder, the artist doesn't get any money from your purchase.

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

discussion is akin to promotion...


This just isn't true.

Guess we can't discuss any news stories where someone did something illegal, then.  After all, we're promoting their actions.


Edited by Pnoom! - February 15 2009 at 09:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:29
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ What I often experienced is that those who engage in illegal downloading often get angry when others refer to it as "stealing".


But that's what it is when you take something from someone without their permission.  Which is why its important to call it that.  Why sugarcoat it? 

If they can't handle people calling them on it, the obvious action is to stop, not to worry about the term. Wink


Except that it's not stealing.  The artist has lost nothing.

It's copyright infringement.

As for whether it's right or not, I've seen and made good arguments in both directions.

The idea that it's killing music, however, is just foolish.  There's more music now than ever before.  Music is obviously thriving, not dying.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:25
I don't really have any significant comments to say about downloading in general. About the closest I can come to downloads is listening to streaming samples from an artist's web page, just to see if I like their music before considering a CD purchase.

On another issue, I don't understand listeners that prefer downloads over actually having the CD. It seems like they aren't getting the full artistic effect of what the artist was trying to get at. Instead it would appear to me they are only getting a fragmented picture of the artist's message or intentions. An album is just not the same to me if it isn't listened as a whole, with the visual experience of the insert artwork (this was an especially better experience in the days of vinyl). And for audiophiles, it's a better listening experience than a compressed mp3 file.

My only problem nowadays is that I wish I could buy more CDs than the handful I have done over the last two years, but economic times aren't what they used to be. Clearly, big tax cuts for filthy rich people don't do a bit of good, but that's another argument for another thread.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:22
That's right.  When you can't afford something, you wait until you can.  Like anything else in our society.  You save your money and eventually you can build a collection..

How did we get to.....if I can't afford something.....I'll just take it.   And its OK because I might buy their stuff later if I like it.  

This topic drives me nuts.....and I can't discuss it without being completely blunt toward those who justify the actions....so, its best if I stay out of here.

Y'all have fun now!Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:17
I have a huge collection of music that was paid for.  I actually have a hard time getting my head around stuff that I have legally downloaded for free.  I still have to have a hard copy.  I can understand younger folks trying to get their hands on as much as possible but still, have some respect for the artists.  They're trying to make a living here.  I was young once and built up my collection the hard way.  Many a used LP.  I did occasionally cassette tape something from a friend that I didn't buy.  Even back then, if I really liked something I still had to get an original.

Edited by Slartibartfast - February 15 2009 at 09:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:15
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ What I often experienced is that those who engage in illegal downloading often get angry when others refer to it as "stealing".


But that's what it is when you take something from someone without their permission.  Which is why its important to call it that.  Why sugarcoat it? 

If they can't handle people calling them on it, the obvious action is to stop, not to worry about the term. Wink


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:12
When I was a student I had literally no other means of experiencing new music than to download it. I could only just cover my bills and had nothing spare to dish out on CDs. As a result of the bands I discovered through this means (most notably Cardiacs) I have subsequently spent a great many pounds on seeing them perform live. That's money I would not have spent had I not downloaded albums by them.

Personally, mp3s aren't enough. The money I HAVE spent on CDs (when I can afford to) usually goes on albums I already "own" in mp3 format. I'm sure the same goes for a lot of other illegal downloaders like myself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 09:01
^ What I often experienced is that those who engage in illegal downloading often get angry when others refer to it as "stealing".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2009 at 08:54
I am with you 100% on this - I too have seen bands and artists suffer from illegal downloading. The PA stance on this matter is simple - no illegal activities,
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

This thread will remain open until someone crosses the line. We don't forbid these kinds of discussions, but they never end well.


Crosses what line? Never end well?

I really do take exception to these comments.
Well, don't - they are not directed at you
 
Originally posted by site rules & guidelines site rules & guidelines wrote:

5. No Illegal activities. Posts and threads promoting or facilitating file swapping, drug abuse, or any other forum of illegal activity are not permitted. Any such posts will be deleted, and the member warned.
 
Even though your are anti-downloading, there will be people responding to this subject taking the opposite view, giving reasons why they believe downloading is neither illegal nor wrong - which can be interpretted as promoting an illegal activity - however, that is seldom the reason why we are forced to close down these threads.
 
If you want to see how these discussions always end, search the forum and see the number of locked threads on this subject, (well, those that haven't been hidden anyway), discussions that have degenerated into little more than slanging matches - often it is not what is said that causes the thread to be locked, but how it is said that infringes site guidelines.
 
Originally posted by site rules & guidelines site rules & guidelines wrote:

2. No Personal attacks (flaming or trolling). Keep it civil, show respect at all times for your fellow members. Disagreement, debate, even "heated" discussion is fine (though emoticons should be used to "soften" the effect of words). However, personally directed insults, denigration, etc. will not be tolerated, and will be grounds for warning and, if not stopped immediately, ejection. This applies equally to forum posts AND private messages. "Group-directed" insults and denigration (e.g., racism, sexism, ageism, etc.) also fall under this category, any such behavior will be taken on a case by case basis. Any member who engages in continuous baiting, borderline insults, or other continuously "aggressive" behaviour will be warned. Any member found to be using concurrent multiple personae (more than one profile at the same time) will be ejected from the site.
 
IF this thread remains within the guidelines it will stay open.
 
Unfortunately on this subject those that illegally download will always find justification for what they are doing - when they feel challenged or threatened they retaliate.
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:


The purpose of this thread is to find out whether people think downloading someone's music for free without their consent is acceptable or not in any circumstances. It is also to highlight the consequences of doing so, which is that great musicians will pack up and that prog will suffer as a result. I absolutely am NOT condoning stealing. The topic was provoked by a conversation I had with Martin Orford a few weeks ago when ordering several albums from Giant Electric Pea, including his own  "The Old Road", during which he said that this was his last recording because he cannot afford to do it anymore. Given that I think The Old Road to be amongst the best 5 albums I've ever heard, I am worried about the effect of downloading on the future of a genre I love.

If that isn't a valid topic, then this site is a total waste of my time and I will go and find one where frank, open discussion is permitted.
As I have said, personnaly I have nothing against discussing this topic - it's just the way these discussions always go that concerns me - it is an emotive subject where both sides get angry.
 
What?
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