Cem Karaca (Turkish progressive master) - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 00:17

Bilek, you should never be afraid of discussion, that's what keeps the forum alive, it's necesary, because we are different people with different concepts.

Now, I know there's not a language defined as Anatolian, but not being a linguist, I have to believe what i read, because to be honest I don't understand a word of what Cem Karaca sings, so if the people who know him best say he sung some tracks in Ancient Anatolian language, I have to believe them, but at the end doesn't matter too much, because what brings us here is the music in whatever language it is sung, or even if it doesn't have words.

Now, Dervisan and you affirm the Rap track is some form of sarcasm, most surely is true, because I must say again, the language barrier doesn't allow me to know what he's saying, I just talked about what I heard,. and joke or not, it's a rap, that's the only thing I was saying.

Still, for what i heard, I don't believe he's a full Prog artist, but this doesn't mean I don't consider him a great artist, I haven't spoke a single word that doesn't show respect for him, but if you add

The music I heard,
The comments I read about him (Not exclusively on Wikipedia, because i know it's not the most reliable source)
The fact that almost no Prog site mentions him despite his long a prolifc career,

Make mel believe Prog Related is the best place for him, but it's not my call being he's not a symphonic artist, another team should decide this, and if he's added, having such adventurous artist in PA won't make me feel bad.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2009 at 00:20

Bilek

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 05:48

It is not discussion itself what I'm afraid of; rather, it is the possibility of things getting ugly, which even you and I had been involved some time ago (Santana, anyone Wink

?) Well, aside from that, you may well be aware that I say all my words to you (and to a couple of senior & respected collabs here) within "with all my respect to you and your expertise on the subject" parenthesis (and I guess you already are Smile

)

One last remark about Anatolian: Neither Cem Karaca's, nor any other notable Anatolian rock artist's language could be considered "ancient" in any of their songs; though sometimes obsolete words pop up, these are usually known by anyone with a high school education, and even the grammar of such prose & poetry is actually the basis of modern Turkish (hence, the same linguists who call the old form of Turkish "Anatolian Turkish" usually underline the fact that this is the logical parent language of modern "Turkey" Turkish, just like Middle English is today's English's parent -as opposed to Ottoman, which was an artifical language constructed by elements from Turkish, Arabic & Persian, and never became anything more than a "court language")
You can just call all kinds of languages spoken by Turkish people as "Turkish" Smile

. That's the easy solution, regardless of the period & style Tongue

Besides, the song in question (Raptiye Rap Rap) has nothing whatsoever to do with folk, ancient culture etc. Just a satire on both rap music itself and the then-current social & cultural situation of Turkey! (Again, let me remind that this track has little to with prog, as well as its parent album! My claims on Cem KAraca's music being prog rests entirely upon different grounds)

The important part I want to emphasise with this message is here:
Your three points to regard Cem Karaca merely as prog related need to be revised:
1- I don't know what exactly you heard from him, and what percentage of his discography these constitute, but as a general guideline, let me just spread out his entire prog & related output. One needs to hear all, at least most of these to appreciate CK as a prog musician:
- His entire output with Kardaslar band (6 singles, plus a couple of outtakes, subsequently released in compilation albums, mostly available in greatest hits CD's at the moment)
- His entire output with Mogollar band (3 singles, plus that much of outtakes, subsequently released in compilation albums, mostly available in greatest hits CD's at the moment)
- His entire output with Dervisan, the "real" progressive rock band (6 singles, a couple of outtakes released in compilations, but most of all, "Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz" album, specifically "Sevdan Beni" track!
- His only album with Edirdahan band, and Turkish progressive masterwork, "Safinaz"
- His 3 albums released in Germany, "Hasret", "Bekle Beni" and "Die Kanaken". Admittedly, these have less prog content than the former albums, mostly due to technical limitations Cem Karaca had because of his exile status in Germany, and partly due to changing times & situations (it was early '80's, mind you!).
I agree with the fact that good music doesn't always mean prog, that's why I left out his entire output with his first recording band Apaslar, and Ferdy Klein orchester made in late '60's & 1970. Also, there are some (albeit very few) songs even in Kardaslar, Mogollar and Dervisan periods, despite being great music, not to be considered as prog (such as "Tamirci Ciragi", being one of his landmark tunes) but I believe prog content in these eras easily overshadow such tracks (just as the prog songs in SEbtP easily overshadow "I Know What I Like" and "More Fool Me" Wink

)

2- Again, I don't know what exactly you read about him, but please let me remind you once again: all opinions are subjective, and people usually reflect their ideas based on their backgrounds, appetites etc. That is, a proghead who gets acquainted with Cem Karaca would (and should) immediately recognise the progressive aspects in his music, whereas people who don't care much about prog will tend to overlook them, and not even have a clue. A jazz lover, for instance, may recognize a little bit of jazzy sound in Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz, or, a classic music listener may (or may not) appreciate the orchestration in his tracks with Werner Müller orchester, and both will fail to associate his music to "prog" (unless, of course, these people also have a prog background). To this effect, even a punk listener may find something to his liking, just like that some punks appreciate the punk sound in The Who's music, whereas we progheads are interested only in the prog content (which eventually gave us a chance to have them added in proto-prog here Wink

)
Another factor which makes him get overlooked is that most Turkish musicians are not very well known outside of Turkey. Luckily, there's a growing interest here and there, and because of this revived interest, I believe we will have a better chance to promote these extraordinary artists in a short time! (and adding them to progarchives database is a primary instrument to accomplish that mission

)

3- That no prog site mentions him is also due to the factors I explained above. People don't mention him, simply because they don't know him!!!

I agree with your last statement (in bold) from the opposite side Smile

: I honestly believe he should be included in a full blown prog subgenre (possible in Folk, maybe crossover or eclectic, certainly not symphonic or anything else; too bad he has little psychedelic content, otherwise I'd do my best to get him into psych anyway Tongue

) but even if he's not added (or added to related) I won't feel bad, either!

Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 10:55

Bilek wrote:

I agree with your last statement (in bold) from the opposite side Smile

) but even if he's not added (or added to related) I won't feel bad, either!

That's the central point Bilek, we both are concious of the limits of this case, he could well go to Folk (The second best option after PR IMHO), go to Crossover (I see him much closer to Folk and PR, because the POP element is not as preeminent as the Ethnic one), Prog Related or simply not be added (What I believe would be unfair).

Cerm Karaca is the kind of artists that creates more problems because the almost imposibility to have a complete view of his career if you don't live in Turkey, I tremember a similar case with Abbhama, they are an Indonesian band with one album released in cassette around 1979, it was so hard to accept them because for people outside the region, the infrormation and access to their music was very hard, until their album was released again by a Japanese label.

In the case of Cem Karaca, is even harder, because having an extense discograph, that crossed so many eras and in a different time reference (As you say, they were doing Proto when the rest of the world was already in full Prog), is very hard to have a real idea of his whole career.

In any of the cases, it won't hurt Prog Archives or the name of the artist.

Cheers

Iván

BTW: Santana? I was always in favour of Santana, just not in Jazz Rock Fusion, I feel his contribution to Psyche and even to Folk is much more imprtant.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2009 at 11:05

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 12:22

Great discussion! This is what PA is about. And a belated thanks, Ivan, for the response before. :)

Duos for fave acts

Bilek

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 16:00

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Add to all these, the lack of "concert album" culture in Turkey for a long time (The first live album I recall is Zülfü Livaneli's "Istanbul Konseri" from 1985! and what an excellent one that is!)
I say this, because at least some live albums contribute greatly to the image of the artist in regards his (their) style; no wonder, many prog bands released one live among every five album; sometimes they even took it to the extent of live-studio-live-studio sequence (as in the case of Tangerine Dream... it becomes even more complicated when you add Tangerine Tree and Bootmoon Series Tongue

). I personally haven't attended any concerts of my favorite artists-bands (with the exception of an Erkin Koray concert, when he was usually playing in and around my hometown in early '90's), much less a concert in their '70's heyday. Yet, from what I heard from people who actually attended those, or at least listened to the recordings, the concert hall seems to be a place where their full power unleashed. I can even sense this with a limited number of concert recordings I had access to. Baris Mancho's 1975 Tarsus concert is an excellent example; though they play their standart album and single songs, the live environment gives these such a feeling that they go even beyond the progressiveness found in the actual albums (that said, Baris's 1975 album "2023" is one of his two most excellent and most progressive albums, anyway!) A similar case is with Erkin Koray's 1974 Nazilli concert. The sound quality is worse than awful (apparently the drummer taped it in order to evaluate his drumming), but when you're familiar with the studio backbones of the tracks they're playing, you understand to what heights they carry these tracks on stage.

anyway, I'm here to overcome all those difficulties. I believe Dervisan may help us with some good live recordings, and I can provide the best of Cem Karaca's progressive albums & tracks in the context that will be best appreciated.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Santana? I was always in favour of Santana, just not in Jazz Rock Fusion, I feel his contribution to Psyche and even to Folk is much more imprtant.

That's the point! I and some other collabs disagreed with you on this, and both wikipedia and AMG had been on our side Tongue

. (it should be noted, however, I never denied Santana's West Coast Psychedelia and Latin-Folk roots. Just that his music went a complete different direction after the first 3 albums!)
Anyway, that was just an old example, I didn't bring it up to scratch old wounds... Just wanted to remind that sometimes discussion may get ugly, even beyond our control Confused

...

cheers Smile

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Posted: February 08 2009 at 18:02

Don't worry Bilek, this is a new Iván who doesn't want to boil his blood for anything.

The point is that Santana is here, and that's enough for me.

But again, dioscussions even when ugly (Despite I'm sure I never disrespected anybody, because that's not my style), are necessary, if not....What's the point of comming to a DISCUSSION FORUM?

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 08 2009 at 18:03

Dervisan

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Posted: February 09 2009 at 06:39

i try to upload the cem karaca-Dervisans concert records to youtube but i couldnt i have to take some help from my friend for this.. wait a little...

you can find erkin koray "nazilli concert" records in "what do you know about turkish progressive and pschedelic" subject ... with all of his discography.. (with edip akbayram-dostlar' s "nedir ne degildir" album)

and i hate my english knowledge Tongue

i continue to try to understand what you have talked about Dead

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock

debrewguy

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Posted: February 09 2009 at 19:20

One thing must be admitted - the artist has generated a very passionate fan. And PA has never regretted true passion about music as long as it's presented with courtesy. As this one has been.

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 09:47

if you'd known his loyal fans in Turkey (fans of his '70's work, like Dervisan and I, not casual fans who like one or two catchy tunes...) you'd understand that he'd actually managed to create more than just one passionate fan LOL

. It's just that he (along with other notable Turkish artists) is not being promoted well enough. Luckily, Dervisan undertook that case recently Big smile

.
It's a pity that people still think of "Midnight Express" when it comes to Turkey. This has to change, and I have to give credit to Dervisan for his brave attempt on this cause.

debrewguy

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 10:39

Well, you never know. Metallica wasn't supposed to get in either , eh ...

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 11:58

on a side note, I'm allright with Metallica's (as well as Maiden's & Sabbath's) presence here... I regard Master of Puppets & And Justice for All (with the possible inclusion of Ride the Lightning) best prog metal albums ever! (and I am as far away to prog metal as anyone can be Wink

)

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 17:59

ANd you know what - I don't remember what review or comment here made me check it out, but The Gunesh Ensemble are one of the few bands listed under Jazz Rock/ Fusion that I actually listen to on a regular basis. And they are from that JRF hot bed - Turkmenistan !

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: February 10 2009 at 20:56

^ Gunesh Ensemble became popular in the beginning of the 80s, when Turkmenistan was a part of the Soviet Union. Their CDs on PA were released by Russian label Boheme Records. Gunesh leader, Rishad Shafi, is an excellent drummer. Those who saw him live (he often played in Moscow in the 90s - 2000s) told me comparisons with Bill Bruford are valid.

Unfortunately now we know almost nothing about current Turkmenian (and not only) music scene.

Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)

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Posted: February 13 2009 at 18:06

sorry all , i have been sick for one week... the weather is really terrible in here, one day cold one day hot...

between 1970 and 1984 absolutely Cem Karaca has done prog rock ... i never discuss this... yes he had got some song s that were non-prog in this time but they are trivial... so he has done what he felt... if you havent listen "Yoksulluk Kader olamaz" album if you havent listen "Safinaz" album if you havent listen parka, sevdan beni, bir mirasyediye ağıt, ihtarname or the others you cant say "he was only related with prog rock.. and we dont allow you, you cant put him to prog related.. sorry..

because a person related with something only one year or one album.. but if he has done this for years (1970-1984) it cant be related... dont talk with me with wikipedia or youtube infos... the info is here and talking with you... so bilek is other turkish prog lover from yurkey and if he is talking same things with me sorry but we are not false... maybe you know progressive more than me but you cant know more that cem karaca made prog or not or only related...

yes edip akbayram only related with prog in his some albums , yes selda bagcan related with progressive in her some albums, you can put them to prog related and i cant say anything because it is true... but i have to say this again ; Cem Karaca , Barış Manço (progressive) or Erkin Koray (psychedelic) ... if you dont listen all their discographies please dont talk only listen... you can never put them to the prog related... and dont say this another turkish prog lover.. they will laught you if you say...

and it s so funny that this web page said that MOĞOLLAR was not a progressive band.. (that i heard) if it is true i will laught a lot... becuase MOĞOLLAR it the biggest name of prog folk of the WORLD... so i dont say this only... because of that they have won the "academic charless cross" award in 1971.. (this award was given to jimi hendrix in 1970 and pink floyd in 1972) so please dont talk strangely if you dont listen their albums... (look ; moğollar(les mogol) Murat ses "fasulye dişli adam" ) i have got their home made progressive and psychedelic records (fo example; born to be wild cover with tradational turkish instruments)

Edited by Dervisan - February 14 2009 at 14:06

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock

Bilek

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 12:44

I thought you were just being humble when you said your English was very bad in your early posts; but indeed it gets worse Tongue

. Or maybe it's just because you're sick (geçmiş olsun bu arada!),or when you write too much you just can't keep good grammar altogether Big smile

(bunları seni aşağılamak için yazmıyorum, hakkını teslim ediyorum sadece Wink

)

Anyways, no problem! I got thew whole idea of what you wanted to express, and that's the point! If there's anyone who has hard time dealing with Dervisan's poor grammar, I'm all yours to help (I'm an English Language Teaching department graduate and currently working as a book translator from English to Turkish Wink

)

Thank you for backing me up (actually it was I who backed you up in the first place Tongue

), and I mentioned the same things you mentioned about Mogollar in the collab's zone. Nice example of "Born to be wild", indeed! I heard Murat Ses's Agri Dagi Efsanesi version before I heard anything from Steppenwolf; that I thought (based on Murat Ses's version) this band might have played progressive music! (well, at least studio version of that particular track has little to do with prog anyway!)

One more thing: You don't have to evaluate the entire output of the "three big ones" (Cem, Baris, Erkin) in order to appreciate the progressive factor in their music. Just a quick look between 1973 & 1985 would be enough for all three! (though both Cem and Erkin continued to show progressive leanings every now and then, such as "Devlerin Nefesi", and surprisingly good "Bindik Bir Alamete"...) As I said earlier (though I'm not sure if I mentioned this in this thread), the music scene in Turkey followed the rest of the world, particularly European rock scene, some four~five years behind, so, many Turkish bands played psychedelic rock (pure psychedelia, not pysch-prog) from 1968 to 1972, and only after this date did our musicians started to get involved in what we can call "prog". Even the album format, which is an indispensible characteristic of progressive music, spread out after 1973, not to mention the fact that debut albums of these three "great" names were all compilations! (though both Erkin's and Baris's 1st albums were illegitimate. Moreover, Cem Karaca didn't release a non-compilation album until 1977!) Consequently, these names produced their "progressive" masterpieces when the world thought prog was about to die (CK - Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz: 1977, Safinaz: 1978, BM - Yeni Bir Gün: 1979, Sözüm Meclisten Disari - 1981, EK - Erkin Koray Tutkusu: 1977) and the progressive tendencies in their music continued well into the mid '80's (some other artists followed this tradition as well; and I don't think the timing of two Asia Minor albums are coincidence, late '79's & early '80's, though this band is half-French). Of course, I'm talking about the "mainstream" symphonic, crossover, psychedelic, eclectic, folk and heavy prog genres here. Jazz Rock-Fusion, Avant-Prog-RIO and Zeuhl is an entirely different story, in which our beloved musicians unfortunately had no part in... and of course, post-1980 prog genres such as neo-prog, post-rock and prog metal has nothing to do with our topic, either Wink

.

for the sake of consistency, for my next post I'm planning to make a list of all "progressive" records Cem Karaca produced, mainly between 1970 & 1984 (I personally don't think there's much we can call prog before 1970, with a couple of notable exceptions, who can overlook Şans Çocuğu or Gılgamış!)

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 12:52

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The music I heard,
The comments I read about him (Not exclusively on Wikipedia, because i know it's not the most reliable source)
The fact that almost no Prog site mentions him despite his long a prolifc career,

Iván

1)i think you didnt heard enough.. so i have given only examples.. i could find these examples in youtube.. i couldnt find a lot of songs.. and some songs that i could find have got terrible record (in normally they are not like this)

2)how can wikipedia know him more than us??? there is no one to know Cem Karaca and the others more than me or my friends...

3)i think you dont like to reseach ; it s a german web page look at this ;

http://psychefolk.com/TurkishProgressive.html

http://progressive.homestead.com/Cem_Karaca.html

http://stevehegede.tripod.com/turkey.htm (about "Safinaz" ALBUM) - you can find comments of this guy about turkish music(Erkin koray, moğollar, cem karaca(masters) nekropsi,ihtiyac molası(modern newbies)..) it s strange he said "The narratives between the choruses adds drama and an element of unpredictability, but most listeners will be driven a little crazy by the amount of repetition(although Magma fans will have no problems here)" i dont agree with him but he said like this..

and i am talking with the owner of psychedelicfolk.com (Gerald) and he is agree with us ; Cem Karaca have done progressive music between 1970 -1984 .. after 1984 he has got 2 important album (i havent told them yet) and one of them is "Nerede Kalmıştık" (soft rock- pop rock) and "Bindik Bir Elamete" (hard rock) -it was his last album before his death already-

they like to reseach ; they know the concert records of Cem Karaca-Dervisan 1977 Ankara and they said this in this web page;

"Sevdan Beni" live Ankara 1977, part 2. The complete track is 13 minutes long. This part comes in when the group is already playing with Cem now and then singing for more than 6 minutes. It's an example of how powerful these performances were. Incredible keyboards, drumming & electronics and powerful vocals. One of the best freaked out live tracks I heard in my life. This track will be on line until June 2004 and will then be removed.

so if you dont listen this you cant know their powerfull sound.. but that you see a german was listening it.. and you cant listen these record becuase you say "it ssss illegaaaaalllll" but you dont know that these records dont sell in market.. only the fans of him have got them... and these records are us and we try to send them to the other countir's prog lover ...if you allow us..

Edited by Dervisan - February 14 2009 at 13:37

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 13:11

Dervişan, though I replied the same questions you handled, (see above, right beneath Ivan's post in question Smile

) thanks for giving another point of view, and mentioning at least two "progressive" sites mentioning Cem.

on a sidenote, if anyone has trouble in understanding Dervisan's English, and feels that he's offending (because he's not!), feel free to drop me a note with the hard-to-comprehend part. I'll delightfully explain it in "Queen's English Big smile

"
The same goes for you, Dervişan. In case you have trouble in understanding what other forum members say (including myself!), just send me a PM, and I'll explain it in Turkish.... Republic Turkish Tongue

Cem Karaca "progressive" discography... coming soon Smile

Dervisan

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 13:11

bilek i will be happy if you correct my grammer... really i hate this.. so i couldnt understand anything or yours and i had to give some examples LOL

(baba yanlış yanlıs yazıyorum düzelt sen arada bi ) LOL

kodummu oturturum yarım yamalak ingilizceyle LOL

Edited by Dervisan - February 14 2009 at 13:18

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock

Dervisan

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 14:42

http://worldmusic.nationalgeographic.com/worldmusic/view/page.basic/genre/content.genre/turkish_pop ; "Turkey also caught rock & roll fever, particularly in the late 60s and throughout the 70s, with the emergence of Anatolian Rock—a genre that took its influence equally from the folklore of Anatolia, as well as the emerging international counterculture. The new wave of artists, Baris Manço & Kurtalan Ekspres, Erkin Koray, Cem Karaca, and Mogollar, used traditional poems, epics and themes to create psychedelia, giving birth to a new form of Turkish progressive music."

http://sthweb.bu.edu/shaw/anna-howard-shaw-center/biography?view=mediawiki&article=Turkish_rock_music (the site of boston university) ; "Following these developments, from 1966 to about 1975, psychedelic rock became extremely popular in Turkey, notably the work of guitarist Erkin Koray. After that, more progressive-styled bands garnered popularity, with older performers like Cem Karaca (Safinaz, 1978) and Moğollar (Düm-tek) moving as well towards progressive Anatolian rock style."

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock

Dervisan

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Posted: February 14 2009 at 16:32

tomorrow we will (rockmedya.net) upload the concert records of Cem Karaca - Dervisan to the Youtube ...

i never offend because i know the truth ... so i didnt do torture to that guy in the "midnight express" MOVİE ... my country have lived terrible days becuase of your country's (USA) cold war with Soviet Russia... and this suppressfull management did torture this country's socialist guys too because your country have feed the fashists (remember USA has made war with them in a world war) .. like Chile, Greece, Nicaragua... do you think that turkish people dont like the management of USA because of religion?? Big smile

ok ok.. music is good... but i hate to hear "midnight express".because it s a movie only (and this movie has made by greece, greece never like turkey.they have got some pain from 1923) but we have got a lot of beautiful things to talk about in reality Wink

so we try to tell beautiful things...

and a question ; i have got some concert records in imeem.com.. how can i put their embed code here????

Edited by Dervisan - February 14 2009 at 17:42

Turkish (Anatolian) Progressive Psychedelic Ethnical Rock