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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 09:28
but before Barış Manço's biography i want to give a youtube link.. maybe they want to know the sound of his music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqz00rVC9FE&feature=PlayList&p=C9D216558DE259B7&playnext=1&index=7    (2023)

this song is the begining song of  "2023" album...

ok lets continue to cem karaca...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 10:09
^ Great!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 10:42
because of that i try to tell them ...

it s only a beginning... turkish progressive and pschedelic is a big sea and so hard to tell suddenly...

like this; it s only the beginning song of "2023" album ..think the others Wink


Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 18:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 11:16
Ivan, did you follow-up by mentioning the bands in the proposed/ potential category team threads?  That's the usual way, I've found, when rejecting a band for one's category and suggesting for another category.  Though in this case if it was considered best for Prog Related, they operate in a different manner.  Of course, I recognise that you were already putting a huge amount of time into it, so it would have been nice to have other teams take an interest in your work without much prodding.  Interesting that Avant/ RIO was suggested mostly due to the lyrics (I know that RIO had a Marxist bent, but....)

Anyway, it seems that it's either a Crossover or Prog Related one.  I'll mention it to Crossover.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 13:01
After Cem Karaca-Edirdahan's LP ; "Safinaz", Turkey has lived a military coup in 1980 ... and the mass arrests and the turtures to political people in everywhere... it was terrible stratocracy days in turkey... when turkey was lived this military coup Cem Karaca was in Germany, he has heard the terrible news from Turkey, he has heard his friends were seem physical torture and the stratocracy want Cem Karaca because of his "1 Mayıs/Durduramayacaklar halkın coşkun akan selini" 45rpm which is made by Cem Karaca-Dervisan... but he has rejected to come back to Turkey.. because he knew that he saw torture because of his politikal situation...and he was denaturalized by the stratocracy (by soldiers dicta)

This was the begining of his  banishment days... think, he couldnt come to his father's funeral ceremonies

but he couldnt be without music... he has started to work in Germany.. he hadnt got money but he had to continue to music... the musicians of Turkish progressive all livingunder pressure or went another countries so he couldnt find any friends...only ugur dikmen was with him (from Dervisan) but he has done a wonderful album even if he was alone and he hadnt got any band ; "HASRET"  (1980)





HASRET  means ; miss something in turkish and he started to miss his country, Turkey...so he has told his missing all of this album...

i cant talk about this album progressive or something else.. he couldnt make progressive because his all band members werent with him... but even if we cant talk about progressive or rock , it was really wonderful album...

there were 12 new songs in this album ;

1) Hasret
2)Giden
3)Hoş Geldin Kadınım
4)Kız Çocuğu
5)Herkez Gibisin
6)Yağma Sofrası
7)Alamanya
8)Akşam erken iner mapusaneye
9)Barış dikeni
10)İster Frengistanda İster içerde
11)Kara Bahtım
12)Bu biçim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwHisB9pPuE (Bu Biçim) 

i can find only this song s link ..but its enough to understand this albums sound..

after this he has made a new album ; "Bekle Beni" (1982)  He hadnt got any band so it had good songs but we cant talk about progressive or pure rock... because he tell his missing to Turkey all... so it s name is "WAIT ME" .. so he said "wait me i will come back turkey"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpUwKUGL4gs  (bekle beni)

but he saw that he had to establish a new band and he establish band from turkish and german musicians to make his new german language album ; "Die Kanaken" (1984)  it was really wonderful album in these terrible days...







Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 13:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 13:31
the songs of "DIE KANAKEN" ;




a side:

1)mein deutscher freund
2)beim kaffee
3)total geschlaucht
4)willkommen
5)es kamen menschen an

b side:
6)schnüffler
7)orient-express
8)was sagst du
9)ayse, meral, semra
10)çok yorgunum


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YPDfRBCrRM&feature=related (es kamen menschen an)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOPemfONM4s&feature=related (total geschlaucht)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_ibErhjDS8  (çok yorgunum)


----------------

ENGLİSH LYRICS OF "ÇOK YORGUNUM"  (i am very tired)  lyrics:Nazım Hikmet music:Cem Karaca
(i am sorry about my english  master *Nazım Hikmet Unhappy) *he is the biggest poet of Turkey


NAZIM HİKMET

i am very tired, dont wait me captain
another person should write the ship's log
harbour that have got plane and have got canopy, that have got blue colour
you cant abate me to this harbour
you cant abate me to this harbour
harbour that have got plane and have got canopy, that have got blue colour
you cant abate me to this harbour
you cant abate me to this harbour
i am very tired, dont wait me captain

------------------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3lT3yHdO4  (Beim Kaffee)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzP9vxasGMk&feature=related
  (willkommen)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcvrmIIAlzg&feature=related  (was sagst du)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkxMV0gKWGY&feature=related (mein deutscher freund)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck-8EP0xr8E&feature=related  (orient-express)

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPNQ7FpE_vI&feature=related   (schnüffler)

he could make the best in this situation i think...










Edited by Dervisan - February 06 2009 at 19:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 13:49
Dervisan, could you slow down a little - we need to catch-up and you are overloading us with information. Smile
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 14:07
it will be finish soon ... there is a lot of master that i have to tell... so i have to finish it at first dean... Barış Manço's biyography is waiting... and Bunalımlar and Edip Akbayram-Dostlar and Ersen-Dadaşlar and Moğollar and Murat Ses and Çığrışım and Hardal and .................................................a long list...

I dont say "Erkin Koray" becuase bilek will write it for your site that i heard...


However this,  i have to prepare a coffee to myself ... break time ...



Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 14:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 14:34
Dervisan, I agree with Dean - a little bit slower. Smile

I'm glad you've joined PA, I believe with your help bands from your country will be added sooner or later. The site will only win because of this.

Some questions to you (I could ask it in PM, but then I thought it can be interesting for others):
I definitely want to know more about Turkish prog and I'm planning to order some CDs. It seems to me Barış Manço's "2023" is essential.
1. What other Barış Manço's album(s) should I get first?
2. I love live albums. Is Barış Manço's "Live in Japan" a good choice?
3. What are the best (for prog fans) albums of Cem Karaca, Edip Akbayram and Erkin Koray?

Lots of CDs are offered on eBay, it's not so easy to make right choice. Smile
Thanks in advance.



Edited by NotAProghead - February 04 2009 at 14:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 17:44
Let me handle that for you:

1. apart from the obvious choice 2023, you definitely should get "Yeni Bir Gün", and good luck with that! It didn't make (appropriately) onto CD, only in a compilation-like format; a commercial CD was made available some 15 years ago, including most of Yeni Bir Gün (bar 2 instrumental tracks,one being very short and last part of the multi-part namesake suite), about half of 2023 (intersting, eh Wink) and one track from an experimental English language self-titled album Baris made in between the two, in order to take his chance abroad (and ultimately fail Tongue). The Turkish vinyl pressing of that album was named after the song included in this CD: Nick the Chopper... The CD was named after the A-1 track of the original Yeni Bir Gün album, "Sari Cizmeli Mehmet Aga" (and a popular hit at that). Luckily, I have the original album on vinyl, and all I could find on digital format was a 192 kbps rip, which circulated in blogspot for some time... (maybe it's still in circulation Wink. I suggest anyone to leave aside legality concerns and go for it! The commercial CD edition has annoying cracks & rustles here and there, apart from not including the entire album itself!)

2. Live in Japan would be an unfortunate choice. Almost nothing from his glorious '70's days is included (apart from the cheesy & popular Daglar Daglar... more info possibly underway with Dervisan's new thread Big smile) and the band is far from representative of their glory period (though the long-time bassist & guitarist are still there...)
More unfortunately, this is the only commercial live release from Baris Manco so far... In that case, I'll suggest to go with bootlegs, the only one I know of which is Live in Tarsus (The same Tarsus, homeland of St. Paul of Bible fame: Acts 9:11), again, found in the blogosphere Big smile. I hope Dervisan may have the resources to help you in that matter! (As far as the Tarsus concert goes, it is fair enough. Quite representative of the glory days, i.e. including some big ones from 2023, and fair sound quality, despite apparently being audience tape)

3. I am a big prog fan (specifically Kraut, Psych-Prog, original Zeuhl, vintage Prog-Electronic, King Crimson & VdGG) myself, and I hope my personal faves mean something for that matter Big smile:
Cem Karaca: Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz (1977 - vinyl version. The CD issue is suffering similar problems as Mancho's abovementioned album), Safinaz (1978 - luckily, we have a decent CD presing of this one!!!) Nem Kaldi & Parka (compilations, 1975 & '76 - good luck with finding both!!!)
Edip Akbayram: Nedir Ne Degildir (1977) (despite having the same "inconsistency" problem in CD edition, this one includes some very good singles and worth having anyway!) I like some of his later albums as well, but probably because of nostalgic affections, rather than progressive qualities!
Erkin Koray: apart from the obvious Elektronik Türküler (Electronic Folk Ballads - 1975 - it has got almost nothing to do with its name!) and Erkin Koray Tutkusu (Erkin Koray Passion - 1977), there are several self titled albums floating around, and despite having the same backbone as tracklisting (a compilation of singles from his freaked-out psychedelic era), most differ in bonus tracks, and one should certainly beware of Erkin Koray 2 album for start... So, it would be best to check out tracks before buying-ordering a self-titled Erkin Koray release.. I may give a list of masterpiece tracks (in fact, all tracks with my personal rating order Smile) if requested. Actually I am supposed to prepare an Erkin Koray bio, since forever, and when it's ready, it'll most likely include "prog essential" tracks, but I'll offer any off list requests before it will be ready... eventually!

Dervisan, Baykoca Destani is not 23 minutes (I wish!), but just over 10. Still a killer track, though! (actually you can have the feeling that it goes on some twenty minutes, because it is so full Big smile)
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 18:16
Thank you very much, Bilek!

I just ordered "2023" and Cem Karaca "Safinaz" and found out that I should make a break (until I put money to my bill) LOL.


Edited by NotAProghead - February 04 2009 at 19:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 19:18
  1. "Acıh da Bağa Vir" (3:45) 
  2. "Kayaların Oğlu" (3:06) 
  3. "2023" (6:54)
  4. "Yol Verin Ağalar Beyler" (4:03) 
  5. "Uzun İnce Bir Yoldayım" (5:11)
  6. "Yine Yol Göründü Gurbete" (3:22)
  7. "Baykoca Destanı: Gülme Ha Gülme" (3:10)
  8. "Baykoca Destanı: Gelinlik Kızların Dansı" (1:47)
  9. "Baykoca Destanı: Kara Haber: Turnanın Ölümü" (1:14)
  10. "Baykoca Destanı: Vur Ha Vur" (2:42) 
  11. "Baykoca Destanı: Durma Ha Durma" (3:19) 
  12. "Tavuklara Kışşşt De!" (2:14)
  13. "Kol Bastı" (6:48)
  so it s true...where is 23 i dont know LOL ok whatever ...

  i think you ask me the albums that were sold in market...Bilek have told you well, so only i can give a summary Big smile ok; at first you have to get masterworks;

Cem Karaca ; Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz LP
                                      Parka/İhtarname 45rpm
                                      Mor Perşembe/Bir Mirasyediye ağıt 45 rpm
                                      Safinaz LP or CD

*you are lucky because of Cem Karaca..you are talking with really big fan of him... "yoksulluk kader olamaz" have got a new CD but why i cant understand the have cut "sevdan beni" at its half Confused  i really hate this..and you can get Cem Karaca best of 1-2-3-4-5 and "Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz"  .. Safinaz have got CD verison already... i can give the real 11 minutes "sevdan beni", if this stupids didnt cut them i can say you go and buy an album but now i can give you original song.. stupids...they have cut from half the most beautiful song of album Thumbs Down cem karaca/Dervisan's have got 3 concert record.. fitaş, londra and ankara ... fitaş concert is really a secret nobody knows it but unless me...i havent got these records but i have listen them 1 time only... Londra concert is really wonderful i prefer this but you can get this rapidshare or from me.. this recor havent got any  album .. Ankara concert is good one too... there is no album about it.. you can get it rapid or from me...

and there is an CD from kalan music (oldies) : Cemaz-ul Evvel



Barış Manço
;Yeni Bir Gün
                                 2023
                      
*the 2023 is in cd and sold but it s not original song .. it s strange that they have change some songs from original..and this cd have a disguisting photoshop album picture..why did they do this i dont know but it s really terrible... if you can listen LPs or 45 rpm s get a real 2023 album , it s better  LOL  you can listen all song from "Yeni bir gün" from "sarı çizmeli mehmet aga" CD (Yavuz Plak) stupid yavuz plak



 .... and the other is "Ben Bilirim" CD from stupid Yavuz Plak




... (it s strage that Cem Karaca's song has cutted by them too)... absolutely he has got concert records but with album yes you can get "live in japan" but i dont like this album so much..i prefer to listen my "2023" LPWink .... tomorrow i will say you his concert records... if he has, it s like cem karaca's concert records... you cant find everywhere...

Erkin Koray ; Elektronik Türküler LP  (it s strange that Sweden make this albums LP in 1995, not CD) Electric Turk - LP Xotic Mind Records
 
                        you can find all old songs in "dünden esintiler 1-2-3-4-5" and in "dünden esintiler 3" you can find the song in electronik türküler LP...  (Kalite MC)



                        if you can find "Erkin Koray Vol.1" ,"Erkin Koray Vol.2"  are wonderful CD s... it s really hard to find them because the publisher of these cd's were bankrupted Thumbs Down (istanbul plakçılık) they really have done good CD,  i am really sad because or their bankrupt Unhappy

     
he has got a nazilli concert record.. but this concert was recorded by nihat örerel (drummer) so he has recorded it to listen his drum so it s really ununderstandable..there is a lot of drum voice LOL but good .. you cant find it everywhere... maybe you can find rapid.. i have got...

Edip Akbayram
; i love to listen his mp3 s but i havent got a lot of info about it.. i have to talk with my friend who is his fan Wink but "Nedir Ne Değildir" is really good album... so your first aim is that LOL

 
                       
                        


Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 19:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 19:38
Safinaz is ok Wink but 2023 is a little different and bad than original... but we can fill this blanks, dont worry... Big smile 

Edited by Dervisan - February 04 2009 at 19:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2009 at 20:29
Sorry, admins. It seems my questions are out of place in Cem Karaca Suggestion thread.

Dervisan, l moved my latest questions to your thread "what do you know about turkish progressive http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55223&KW=&PID=3130935#3130935, where we can talk of Baris Manco and other artists from your country.

Let's give collaborators the time to analyze your information of Cem Karaca.



Edited by NotAProghead - February 07 2009 at 19:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2009 at 02:25
And let them just analyze "music",specifically on Safinaz & Yoksulluk Kader olamaz albums Smile
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2009 at 04:52
but it hasnt finisht yet... there is 2 albums more to tell about what is more important in his life.. ; "Nerede Kalmıştık" and "Bindik Bir Elamete"

but they are not more important for prog rock.. buy a rock lover want to know them i think... espaccially with "Nerede Kalmıştık", rock was reborned in Turkey after stratocracy (dictatour military management)

ok analyze them and this time i will tell them...

and Cem Karaca can be 1th place in every list.. he can do it after his death too..  may God have mercy on this big  musician (it will be his die  anniversary 3 days later.. give him a present..give him a little respect)

Edited by Dervisan - February 05 2009 at 05:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2009 at 09:05
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Ivan, did you follow-up by mentioning the bands in the proposed/ potential category team threads?  That's the usual way, I've found, when rejecting a band for one's category and suggesting for another category.  Though in this case if it was considered best for Prog Related, they operate in a different manner.  Of course, I recognise that you were already putting a huge amount of time into it, so it would have been nice to have other teams take an interest in your work without much prodding.  Interesting that Avant/ RIO was suggested mostly due to the lyrics (I know that RIO had a Marxist bent, but....)

Anyway, it seems that it's either a Crossover or Prog Related one.  I'll mention it to Crossover.
 
It was not a proper rejection Logan,
 
Tony asked the teams to check the Master List and clean all the bands that had your team's name,  in this case it was written:
 
Cem Karaca....Turkey......Early Symphonic.
 
We took 12 bands, checked one by one (I believe only 2 or 3 were Symphonic) added this 2 or 3, made a recommendation for each band that we had checked and notified the teams one by one, also sent a copy to a couple of Adms because we had promissed Tony to clean our part.
 
But the urgent is enemy of the necessary, we couldn't follow the fate of all bands because we had to do our job.
 
Now, in the case of Cem Karaca, even when I respect Bob's (Clem) opinion, I saw no Rio-Avant at all, Ht and me saw more a great  Ethnic artist with some Prog influenced and  Psyche works plus a good number of Folk but non Prog and some sort of Chanson ones that in our opinion suited best for Prog Related.
 
On those days we took the time to find as many samples, full songs and even a couple of complete albums if we could, because HT is a neurotic obsessive LOL who can''t stop investigating when he finds a new artist and I'm another one. Wink
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 05 2009 at 09:43
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2009 at 17:29
ivan ; i dont know i can understand your writings true or false but i can understand like that ; "cem karaca is not a progressive artist, only he was related with it" .. if you said it for others (not cem karaca(prog), not barış manço(prog), not erkin koray(psche) ) i can say that "yes it s true" but i cant agree with you about cem karaca (or the other 2 master)  if you said edip akbayram (who is a famous singer of turkey) was related with progressive in his some work, i can say you "yes it is absolutely true" i dont know which works did you listen or research about cem karaca but he absolutely made progressive, not related with it.. also barış manço too ... yes they absent from this some albums but it was not about their fault, it was about conditions of turkish political life... they have lived a terrible army coup in 1980 which was stoped music art  or other artistic value.. please take on board this Wink 

on the other hand , if you want to categorize please researc general... you absolutely know more from me but you cant categorize him only semphonic prog(because of safinaz) or early semphonic prog (becuase of Cem Karaca-Apaşlar / Freddy Klein) or prog folk (Cem Karaca/Kardaşlar or Cem Karaca/Moğollar) or only prog (Cem Karaca/Dervisan)  ... if you want to categorize him please look at him works  general... if you say that "he is not a prog artist, he was only related with it sometimes" it will be absolutely grievance... 

and you said "he has done rap" LOL no he didnt.. he has kidded with the president of a republic and the  young and silly rappers in that song that you have listened ; "rap rap" LOL (but i think he could do it better that silly rappers because there was terrible disguisting(with really silly lyrics)  rap flood in this time) Wink

thank you Smile




Edited by Dervisan - February 06 2009 at 18:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by Dervisan Dervisan wrote:

ivan ; i dont know i can understand your writings true or false but i can understand like that ; "cem karaca is not a progressive artist, only he was related with it" .. if you said it for others (not cem karaca(prog), not barış manço(prog), not erkin koray(psche) ) i can say that "yes it s true" but i cant agree with you about cem karaca (or the other 2 master)  if you said edip akbayram (who is a famous singer of turkey) was related with progressive in his some work, i can say you "yes it is absolutely true" i dont know which works did you listen or research about cem karaca but he absolutely made progressive, not related with it.. also barış manço too ... yes they absent from this some albums but it was not about their fault, it was about conditions of turkish political life... they have lived a terrible army coup in 1980 which was stoped music art  or other artistic value.. please take on board this Wink 

on the other hand , if you want to categorize please researc general... you absolutely know more from me but you cant categorize him only semphonic prog(because of safinaz) or early semphonic prog (becuase of Cem Karaca-Apaşlar / Freddy Klein) or prog folk (Cem Karaca/Kardaşlar or Cem Karaca/Moğollar) or only prog (Cem Karaca/Dervisan)  ... if you want to categorize him please look at him works  general... if you say that "he is not a prog artist, he was only related with it sometimes" it will be absolutely grievance... 

and you said "he has done rap" LOL no he didnt.. he has kidded with the president of a republic and the  young and silly rappers in that song that you have listened ; "rap rap" LOL (but i think he could do it better that silly rappers because there was terrible disguisting(with really silly lyrics)  rap flood in this time) Wink

thank you Smile


 

Don't be offended Dervisan, I'm not an expert in Turkish Progressive Rock, but I remember last year while researching with the team, our first impression was Prog Folk, but we found a lot of information and samples that lead to Prog related more than to a full Prog artist as you well say in your first lines.

I didn't judged him as Symphonic, I received a list in which he was mentioned as a Symphonic artist, but a listen to his music was enough to notice he wasn't Symphonic, so we started to search (As we always do), in which sub-genre he could fit best, despite the fact that as a Symphonic Team, it wasn't our duty.

Of course I don't get a word in Anatolian, so I can't say if it's a joke or whatever but I know what is rap, and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-De7LkyFmU is Rap and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTA6vzGoTyM is close to French Chanson more than to Prog Folk or this to some sort of techno Folk pop http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejju6-mZtNY&feature=related.

This for example is poetry in the style of Charles Aznavour mweets Cat Stevens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtGpYYyGOkI&NR=1

As a fact one of his biographies says clearly that he played some Prog and a lot of other things:

 
Quote

He was the only child of İrma Felekyan (Toto Karaca) of Armenian origin[1], a popular opera, theatre and movie actress, and Mehmet İbrahim Karaca of Azeri origin.[2] His first group was called Dynamites and was a classic rock cover band. Later he joined Jaguars, an Elvis Presley cover band. In 1967, he started to write his own music, forming the band Apaşlar (Apachees), his first Turkish-language group. In 1969, Karaca and bass-player Serhan Karabay left Apaşlar and started an original Anatolian group called Kardaşlar (Brothers).

In 1972, Karaca joined the group Moğollar (Mongols) and wrote one of his best-known songs, "Namus Belası". However, Cahit Berkay, the leader of Moğollar, wanted an international name for his band, and he left for France to take the group to another level. Karaca, who wanted to continue his Anatolian beat sound, left Moğollar and started his own band Dervişan (Dervishes) in 1974. Karaca and Dervişan sang poetic and progressive songs.

 

Seems clear he wrote not only Prog material.

I haven't mentioned other artists of your country, because I'm absolutely non familiar with them, but for what I heard of Cem Karaca he has some Prog related material and a lot of non Prog material, so IMO the best place for him is Prog Related, and if you notice, I was the first one to recommend his inclusion on Prog Archives a year ago in the Prog Related category.

Good luck Dervisan, but as always I will keep giving my opinion even with a much more limited knowledge of this particular artist than you, because even when I heard much less, what I heard, haven't impressed me as Prog, and categorizing his poetry and style to only Prog, would be limiting is essence of Poet, Bard and Classic Rock icon in Turkey.

Iván

 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 06 2009 at 19:48
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2009 at 15:03
Before having to see you two involved in a fierce discussion (which will most probably arise from misunderstanding, since Dervisan admittedly has limited English knowledge, much less about the way things here in progarchives work LOL), let me add my two cents:

Ivan, while wikipedia infos are usually "true", that doesn't mean they include "everything", so, even if Cem Karaca made absolute prog music in the times which somehow remain outside the scope of a certain article (in this case, main Cem Karaca entry), they unfortunately remain overlooked... This is the case with at least two of the bands mentioned in the article, Karaca made totally "prog" with both Kardaslar and Mogollar (Mogollar themselves being a prominent prog-folk band), but as the musical style featured during this time had been somewhat non-mainstream, many people who undertake to write such biographies don't bother to make a mention of "prog"... or, simply because they are uninterested... the reason "Dervishan" period is mostly referred to as prog may be that synthesisers had been so prominently used, and Karaca's music somehat deviated from the "previously unheard type of Turkish prog-rock fusion", which actually dominated most of the newly-evolving Turkish rock scene, and subsequently dubbed as Anatolian Rock, or Anatolian Pop...
While I may agree with you that there are a considerable number of Cem Karaca records, which clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with prog, this doesn't diminish the "prog" value of the other records, which, I belive, constitute the majority. For that reason, and from another viewpoint than that of Dervisan's (forum member Smile. not to be confused with Cem Karaca's superb "progressive rock" backing band Wink) I assert that Cem Karaca should be added into a full-blown prog genre (certainly not symphonic anyway). There are artists which made only one prog album in their decades-worthy careers, and yet, beause of the influence of that particular album, being featured in a prog subgenre here... This should be the case with Cem Karaca; he should be evaluated on the grounds of Resimdeki Gözyaslari (1968), Namus Belasi (1974), Dadaloglu (1970), Parka (1975) singles, and Yoksulluk Kader Olamaz (1977) and Safinaz (1978) albums; not on Töre (1988), Yiyin Efendiler (1990) or Nerde Kalmistik (1992) albums, the latter of which (I believe, because I don't have access to youtube) includes the  so-called Rap track you mentioned... I'm coming to that in a moment Big smile.

Just a quick sidenote on Charles Aznavour type French chansons: As you may well have noticed, Cem Karaca had been recoding since 1967, a year barely marking the beginnings of proto-prog, much less a time for expecting something really "prog" outside of mainland Europe or U.S. ... Even then, Karaca's some songs included some experiments with Anatolian sounds and classic rock; enough to be called "progressive" for its time. Anyway, his "Aznavour meets Cat Stevens" type of songs (again, I didn't have a chance to look at youtube samples, yet, I know exactly what you're talking about Wink) come from a transitional period between his first recoding band "Apaslar" and second one "Kardaslar". According to the limited info I have, he had been stuck in Germany for some time during 1970 (I learned this from himself, full story is irrelevant to the subject, about his "Baba" song, and I'll tell off-topic if anyone is interested Wink), and probably didn't have access to his newly-formed band Kardaslar at the time, so he made use of Ferdy Klein - Werner Müller orchestra, which also gave him a helping hand in several of his singles with Apaslar band, and recorded those chanson-like songs. Another involving factor is the tendency to imitate what is popular outside of Turkey; apparently that style was popular, at least for Cem Karaca himself anyway, so he made use of it for some period. Admittedly non-prog, but most of the songs from this period are indeed amazing to me.

About rap: although Dervisan the forum member explained that a little bit, let me further comment: First, there's no such language as "Anatolian" (though some linguists refer to a certain stage of Turkish language as "Anatolian Turkish"), just like there's no language as Iberian, South American, or Amazonian LOL. After my insolent joke, let me mention that along with Cem Karaca's attempt to make fun of wanna-be rappers, Rap has another (and more ancient) meaning in Turkish, reflectional sound of a soldier's boot. So, the phrase "rap rap" usually suggests a marching band of soldiers, which in turn brings to mind the excessive number of coup d'états Turkey suffered every ten years from 1960 to 1980 (and there was one more to come in post-modern format before the '90's were over Smile). The latest one of those made Cem Karaca himself suffer more than most people in Turkey, he virtually lost his family, his established life, and even his reputation to an extent.
In the bottom line, the song is intended both to make sarcasm of rap music, and to subtly refer to the effects of military powers to the state and society. It has more social and political meanings, but this is not the place to tell them all  Smile.
Admittedly a non-prog song, just like most of the album (Nerde Kalmistik - 1992) anyway! Yet, I have already made a petition not to evaluate CK on the basis of such albums Wink. I beseech thee, to be fair to this extraordinary artist, and evaluate the bulk of his prog stuff so as to warrant him a "deserved" place in progarchives, my ultimate source for progressive music Big smile (I'm not just referring to you personally, Ivan. My petition includes everyone, notably members of relevant genre teams, involved in this process...)


P.S. late '80's and '90's (notably early nineties) were deserted times for prog music in general (although certainly not for extreme subgenres such as RIO-Zeuhl-Avant prog), so my request to totally ignore the output recorded-released during these times should be legitimate... This also goes for other Turkish artists, for whom both I and Dervisan-the-forum-member will apply in time Big smile
Another interesting aspect in this timeframe is that Turkish music usually follows Europe some 5 years back (with the notable exception of Erkin Koray's first single: released around the same time and exactly the same style with Beatles' first album, thus, practically co-inventing beat style rock along with them Wink), so, when it was psychedelic era in Europe and US, we had been dealing with early pop songs, with some "beat" thrown in; when prog arose in Europe, we upgraded to psychedelia (Erkin Koray's best psychedelic songs are from 1971-74 period!); and when prog began to fall out of favor, we made prog music Big smile (most prominent Turkish prog albums are from late '70's). Lucky for us, because when there was sh*t all over the place in the early '80's, we still had decent proggy pop-rock albums! (this "pop" is in the "popular" sense; not as in "synth-pop") Unfortunately, the late '90's - early 2000's prog revival never fully effected Turkey, apart from a handful of exceptions (such as Nekropsi & Replikas)
Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!)
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