Getting estranged from prog

^ Of course The Red Masque are much more eclectic. It's just that I recognize all the little "quirks" they use, and Mastodon simply sound more fresh to me. Of course you're free to not like Mastodon, but I don't think it's fair to narrow them down to "a bunch of meter changes". That suggests to me that you haven't given them the attention they deserve. I think that simply can't be helped ... we all have limited time, and no one can demand of someone else to invest time in music they intuitively don't like. However, it may be necessary in order to become an expert, or even for making a profound contribution to a discussion about modern prog.

BaldFriede wrote: But this "perfect" sound is exactly what makes it lifeless. You don't hear music that way, and I am not talking of big concerts here at all. Even if, for example, only two acoustic guitar players sit in your living room and play, the sounds of the instruments blend into each other because they are being reflected from the surroundings. Whereas in modern studio productions all instruments are completely separated. This makes it sound sterile and artificial, especially when listening with headphones.

I beg to differ. It all depends on how the artists want their instruments to be recorded. Even in a live settings the two guitars would be miked independently of each other, each would have its own track in the recording, and during mixdown the instruments are blended together again. This is how it has always been done, in the 70s and today. Of course you can choose to record both guitars on the same track with only one condensator microphone with sphere (or 8) characteristics, but that would only be done out of necessity, for example when the number of tracks is limited by your equipment. Today you can literally use as many tracks as you want. I'll say it again: I'm sure that if the artists had had (strange language, this English) the technology back in the 70s, they would also have used it.

BaldFriede wrote: As to "every musician comes to a point where they feel everything has been done already": Maybe, but that's not what I am talking about. I have not reached that point at all, and I do find a lot of things still which I think are worth trying as a musician. I just don't find them in most of modern prog. And you can certainly here influences in The Red Masque; no-one is without influences. But they have that kind of anarchistic approach to music which I like.

Personally, I don't find their music that exciting or even anarchistic. I would much prefer a band like Mastodon when it comes to that, because they are really breaking down the structures of the genre they "started at".

Mr ProgFreak wrote: BaldFriede wrote: I don't know why, but I am getting more and more estranged from prog. It still has a place in my heart, but the development the music is taking in this genre makes me shy away from it. Or perhaps it is my own development, who knows? .In any case, newer  artists in prog seem to have different opinions about what prog actually is than I. The few exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand. There are some old heroes who keep carrying the flag, but some of them have left the path of what is acceptable for me. And they are of course not getting any younger, which means there number becomes fewer with each year. Artists like The Red Masque, who in my opinion are by far the best of what cropped up in the last ten years, are few. (They get, by the way, far too little attention in here, in my honest opinion. The archives should hail them like some of the big bands of the 70s, and I mean it). I'm a fan, too. But somehow they don't strike me as being particularly inventive or innovative. Don't get me wrong, I think they're good songwriters and I would not call them "copycats" - but I don't think they're re-inventing the musical wheel either. You can hear plenty of influences in their music - VdGG/Peter Hammill to name only one. I think that the band - as good as it may be - appeals to die-hard classic prog fans much more than to the younger generation. Carrying the prog flag to me makes only sense if you're reaching younger generations too ... if prog wants to survive, it must change at least to some extent ... flexibility is the key. BaldFriede wrote: I find myself listening to classical music and jazz mostly these days. That is, I still listen to prog, but I am really missing new artists that keep the ball rolling. People have suggested some new artists to me, but they didn't really excite me. As I said, it may be just me (though Jean says she feels quite similar). There just is no real daring anymore, except from some of the old heroes. There's not much "daring" in classical music and jazz either ... I guess that for every musician there comes a day when they realise that most things have been done before. After all, there are only 12 notes. You may try to expand on that and listen to microtonal stuff, but other than that there's hardly anything groundbreaking once you've learned the "tricks". I know that many people are looking for the perfect piece of music - the most innovative, difficult to play or simply most experimental piece ever conceived. As far as I'm concerned - I value those things, but they're not what makes music interesting to listen to. IMO the most important thing is songwriting ... and whether the music appeals to me on a personal level. My most favorite albums all feature great songwriting *and* outstanding musicianship, and I really can relate to them personally. This combination is what's most important to me, and it's independent of style or genre. BaldFriede wrote: Modern production adds to my discomfort with prog; it no longer sounds organic, it sounds artificial. Every single instrument is so clearly separated from the other - that's not the way it sounds when you hear music being played live. Here the instruments blend into each other, making the whole thing sound organic. This is probably one of the reasons why I prefer live recordings to studio ones (especially modern studio recordings). Is it just me, or is anyone else feeling like this? I feel the exact opposite way. At any typical live show the sound is far from perfect ... this blending of instruments you describe is something which simply can't be helped. Recording technologies have certainly come a long way ... today we are able to clearly separate the instruments, which even in the 70s - which were already much more advanced than the previous decades - was quite difficult to achieve. It's my personal opinion that it's preferable to record the instruments as clearly as possible - and I think that had the bands had the technology we have today, they would have used it.

But this "perfect" sound is exactly what makes it lifeless. You don't hear music that way, and I am not talking of big concerts here at all. Even if, for example, only two acoustic guitar players sit in your living room and play, the sounds of the instruments blend into each other because they are being reflected from the surroundings. Whereas in modern studio productions all instruments are completely separated. This makes it sound sterile and artificial, especially when listening with headphones.
As to "every musician comes to a point where they feel everything has been done already": Maybe, but thatÄs not what I am talking about. I have not reached that point at all, and I do find a lot of things still which I think are worth trying as a musician. I just don't find them in most of modern prog.
And you can certainly here influences in The Red Masque; no-one is without influences. But they have that kind of anarchistic approach to music which I like.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 06 2009 at 06:22

BaldFriede wrote: I don't know why, but I am getting more and more estranged from prog. It still has a place in my heart, but the development the music is taking in this genre makes me shy away from it. Or perhaps it is my own development, who knows? .In any case, newer  artists in prog seem to have different opinions about what prog actually is than I. The few exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand. There are some old heroes who keep carrying the flag, but some of them have left the path of what is acceptable for me. And they are of course not getting any younger, which means there number becomes fewer with each year. Artists like The Red Masque, who in my opinion are by far the best of what cropped up in the last ten years, are few. (They get, by the way, far too little attention in here, in my honest opinion. The archives should hail them like some of the big bands of the 70s, and I mean it).

I'm a fan, too. But somehow they don't strike me as being particularly inventive or innovative. Don't get me wrong, I think they're good songwriters and I would not call them "copycats" - but I don't think they're re-inventing the musical wheel either. You can hear plenty of influences in their music - VdGG/Peter Hammill to name only one.

I think that the band - as good as it may be - appeals to die-hard classic prog fans much more than to the younger generation. Carrying the prog flag to me makes only sense if you're reaching younger generations too ... if prog wants to survive, it must change at least to some extent ... flexibility is the key.

BaldFriede wrote: I find myself listening to classical music and jazz mostly these days. That is, I still listen to prog, but I am really missing new artists that keep the ball rolling. People have suggested some new artists to me, but they didn't really excite me. As I said, it may be just me (though Jean says she feels quite similar). There just is no real daring anymore, except from some of the old heroes.

There's not much "daring" in classical music and jazz either ... I guess that for every musician there comes a day when they realise that most things have been done before. After all, there are only 12 notes. You may try to expand on that and listen to microtonal stuff, but other than that there's hardly anything groundbreaking once you've learned the "tricks". I know that many people are looking for the perfect piece of music - the most innovative, difficult to play or simply most experimental piece ever conceived. As far as I'm concerned - I value those things, but they're not what makes music interesting to listen to. IMO the most important thing is songwriting ... and whether the music appeals to me on a personal level. My most favorite albums all feature great songwriting *and* outstanding musicianship, and I really can relate to them personally. This combination is what's most important to me, and it's independent of style or genre.

BaldFriede wrote: Modern production adds to my discomfort with prog; it no longer sounds organic, it sounds artificial. Every single instrument is so clearly separated from the other - that's not the way it sounds when you hear music being played live. Here the instruments blend into each other, making the whole thing sound organic. This is probably one of the reasons why I prefer live recordings to studio ones (especially modern studio recordings). Is it just me, or is anyone else feeling like this?

I feel the exact opposite way. At any typical live show the sound is far from perfect ... this blending of instruments you describe is something which simply can't be helped. Recording technologies have certainly come a long way ... today we are able to clearly separate the instruments, which even in the 70s - which were already much more advanced than the previous decades - was quite difficult to achieve. It's my personal opinion that it's preferable to record the instruments as clearly as possible - and I think that had the bands had the technology we have today, they would have used it.

Well, it is not as if I entirely lost my interest in the genre. But I hardly find any new productions I consider to be worthwhile to listen to except, as already noted, from some of the old guys who somehow seem to have the knack to know what real music is all about. But the new artists cropping up in prog somehow don't do it for me. And I somehow can't believe this is because I have lost my liking for experimentation; on the contrary, it is the lack of experimentation which I deplore.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 06 2009 at 05:51

Not feeling estranged from prog in general, but I guess I dont listen to much modern prog for similar reasons to you; lack of invention, digital production etc..