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Tapfret 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8581
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 Posted: December 11 2008 at 02:12 |
 Most everyone from the last 8 pages and in every Prog Rock vs. Prog Metal Thread wrote:
 
   
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65266
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Posted: December 11 2008 at 02:07 |
^ hey Mr ProgFreak, if that is your real name, take your pompous attitude and... oh hi Mike, just kidding  .. I wish I'd heard many more things from '08 but I'm terribly broke right now, lucky to get a few new CDs a month and when I do it's usually from a backlist of things I'm looking for, most not from this year
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:56 |
Of course. But how can that be a problem ... or are many of those who constantly complain about there being too much prog metal simply envious, and wish that there were more prog rock albums being released today? Well, I can only say that the most fundamental problem that we - the community of prog fans - are facing is the lack of support for new artists. It's really breaking my heart that many members here have only listened to like half a dozen releases of 2008 - regardless of whether they're rock or metal. At PF I'm trying to focus on new bands, and I'm positively surprised about the participation, but I wish there would be more people who are willing to leave the past behind (or at least let the past be the past) and focus on the here and now. 
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:32 |
Hey Visitor, thanks for mentioning Stan Kenton, I hadn't heard of him before and he rules.
It's just that prog metal has the highest profile bands with new releases.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 11 2008 at 01:05 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
And that's not all, OCTAVARIUM received during the first days like 66% of 5 stars reviews and 25% (This means 91% of minimum 4 sdtars) many even said it was the best album ever, and the fact is that when prog Reviewers started to write with responsability, the average went radically down, to the point that it has 3.63 stars despite the avalanche of 5 stars reviews of the first days, a lot of which I'm sure diden't even heard the album |
The same happens to any high profile band - it's not a problem of a single genre.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 19:46 |
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You are right Ivan and this is a tendency across the board on the internet. The new Batman is officially the greatest movie ever as per the rating on imdb!!! A combination of unbridled fanboism and a disdain for history, influences and importance is responsible for distortion of ratings.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 19:32 |
DavetheSlave wrote:
Hey Dean - The extreme Metal guys just battled for days to get me to listen to and like Opeth. I hated extreme metal before. Now you tell me that Opeth aint extreme metal no more!!! Holy Cow - Back to the drawing board again!!!!!
By the way - thanks for sorting my name for me - when I heard you would assist I thought Oh No - he's gonna put me into internet ether!!!! Can't say that sometimes I haven't deserved it. Now - about Korn..........
LOL |
If you want tech/extreme metal, you are looking for stuff like Martyr. There's more on the tech/extreme appreciation thread.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:52 |
Just a thing Progrocker, I never said they are not Prog.
Iván
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:48 |
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It's not prog rock like Yes, it's prog metal. Listen to some DT and then you'll understand. It's just prog with a heavier edge to it. It is metal with progressive solos and complexity
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:48 |
progmetalhead wrote:
crimson87 wrote:
 This is one of the reasons why I dislike prog metal mostly. Call me a purist but , I think It's making a distorsion in the history of prog. Who is teaching this kids for God's sake!!! Kerrang!??
Besides he is talking about CTTE!!!!! |
 One person out of a world population of 6 billion + incorrectly classified a Yes album is one of the reasons you dislike Prog Metal!
Well I guess if the case against Prog Metal being Prog has come to that then I rest my case my lord! |
Please progmetalhead, Crimson said he doesn't like Prog Metal for the distorsions, the examples are multiple, you are new here, but in 2005 for approximately one month prior to Octavarium's release, James LaBrie's solo album Elements of Persuasion was distributed as Octavarium in peer to peers, and due to the fact that Octavarium was added before released, received more or less 50 reviews with 5 stars....And the album wasn't even Octavarium, most have been deleted, but it proved that even the Prog Metal history was distorted..
I understand that a kid believes Prog Archives is a prog metal site, but the Octavarium issue, is pathetic.
And that's not all, OCTAVARIUM received during the first days like 66% of 5 stars reviews and 25% (This means 91% of minimum 4 sdtars) many even said it was the best album ever, and the fact is that when prog Reviewers started to write with responsability, the average went radically down, to the point that it has 3.63 stars despite the avalanche of 5 stars reviews of the first days, a lot of which I'm sure diden't even heard the album
From 35 reviews written between 7 and 9 of June 2007 (Plus two 5 stars reviews written on May 26):
- 23 reviews with 5 stars (65.7%)
- 9 reviews with 4 stars (25.7)
- 2 reviews with 3 stars (5.7%)
- 1 reviews with 2 stars (2.85)
- 0 reviews with 1 star (0%)
And the RWR are countless, despite at least 50 prior to the release were deleted
Now, despite the first days suspicious ratings (I honestly believe many of them didn't heard the album in the morning and were on time to make a respectable reviewf so fast) Octavarium has gone down to
5 stars...41%
4 stars...22%
3 stars...19%
2 stars...11%
1 star........8%
So tell me if isn't right to assume that most people had their 5 stars ratings ready before the album was released and is a distostion?
Especially when we are talking about a non trascendental album that has 561 reviews or ratings but only
19 reviews in 2008
27 reviews in 2007
42 reviews in 2006
88 reviews in the three years after the sixth month of it's release,.
There is a distorsion, that's almost sure a fact.
Iván
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17524
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:24 |
Hi,
Kinda funny ... to think that even the likes of Dream Theater is "prog" ...
In a way, the major issue and problem with the term, is that it is trying to limit the possibilities in many musics and styles ... and this is ... be honest ... boring!
It's sad too ... because ... check this out ... in my words:
Guru Guru was a prog band ... they took what I considered Hendrix and went spacy with it (in the early days!!!) ...
Ange ... prog band that had the sound that Genesis couldn't keep ... and rock too!
Roy Harper ... you want to talk about folk music that is experimental and progressive as it comes? And he ad libs with the best of them!
Steeleye Span/Fairport Convention ... I always thought of these as progfolk ... but I guess there are too many fad'ists out there that would consider that a shame ... never mind some really outstanding music ...
Amon Duul 2 ... the most prog of them all, let's not discuss the last 3 or 4 albums ... stopped with Made in Germany and Hijack ... no band ever did so much music and so different from album to album ... and maybe you should listen to Apocalyptic Bore and then Fly to the Rainbow (title track from Scorpions) to see who really inspired people ... and what!
Tangerine Dream was prog ... but then only did nice music ... ohh I forget ... no one does sound effects and music anymore, unless you are in a New Age store!
Alan Stivell, was and is, the most prog of all the harp players ... you would think that everyone would enjoy listening to the unbelievable freedom in his music from rock, to orchestra to jazz to folk to way out there cacophony ... some of the most incredible mixes ... yet no one even considers this prog.
And yet ... it's sad that all we can discuss is music that is basically patterned after some of the really great bands in the past ... King Crimson, Emerson Lake and Palmer ... and you know what? ... even today, there are not enough bands that have balls to do something different ... they have to sound "prog" ....
The minute we "limit" things ... it's over ...
To be honest with you, I don't want another King Crimson, or another ELP, or another Banco ... it will take away from their very beauty ... and what made them ...
We need to stop labelling the music ... and stop looking for things that sound familiar to your ears ...
Ahhhh ... Dream Theater ... while it is nice to hear good music, be it prog or bullsh*t, the fact of the matter is that it is nice music ... but it is not capable of getting away from the "rock" element ... just like many of the "prog" bands have to find their justifications with washes of keyboards and fancy lyrics. Mind you they are very good and you should see the Live album with an orchestra ... but you know what? Most of us, when we are old and fart'y and sick ... will not be even listening to them ...
... so much for prog ...
Long live prog ... the prog is dead .. to coin an old phrase.
Enjoy the music and its beauty ... but stop thinking that it is good simply because it is "prog" ... the majority of things I hear are just copies and attempts to learn what that "muse" is ...
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 13:13 |
Hey Dean - The extreme Metal guys just battled for days to get me to listen to and like Opeth. I hated extreme metal before. Now you tell me that Opeth aint extreme metal no more!!! Holy Cow - Back to the drawing board again!!!!!
By the way - thanks for sorting my name for me - when I heard you would assist I thought Oh No - he's gonna put me into internet ether!!!! Can't say that sometimes I haven't deserved it. Now - about Korn..........
LOL
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:49 |
slaver wrote:
Hi Dean - I can hear what Petrucci's and Portnoy's and the rest of the Bands technical skill is purely by listening!!! Many call it musical w**king but I don't agree. If you got it flaunt it!!!!! I must admit that I'm trying to get into extreme technical Metal and I am starting to enjoy some of it - but nothing there thus far has shown me the skill of a Petrucci, a Malmsteen, a Portnoy or in fact a Bonham or a Paice. |
Ah, you're talking technical virtuosity - again, subgenre has little bearing on that - in fact Petrucci as a solo artist is in Extreme Metal - as is Bozzio and Sheehan (and Bozzio as a drummer is in a different league to Portnoy IMO) - However, Extreme is not about instrumental virtuosity as much as it is about composition and texture (a I believe Opeth are gradualy moving away from Extreme so are not the best example of what Extreme Metal is). I'd recommend listening to Arcturus, Frantic Bleep or Ephel Duath as examples of how Extreme can take Metal beyond "metal" and into completely different dimensions.
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What?
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:38 |
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Hi Dean - I can hear what Petrucci's and Portnoy's and the rest of the Bands technical skill is purely by listening!!! Many call it musical w**king but I don't agree. If you got it flaunt it!!!!! I must admit that I'm trying to get into extreme technical Metal and I am starting to enjoy some of it - but nothing there thus far has shown me the skill of a Petrucci, a Malmsteen, a Portnoy or in fact a Bonham or a Paice.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35886
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:15 |
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I don't know that one need be a Proghead to like and understand Progressive Electronic bands. I know quite a few, for instance, who love Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk (including their more difficult albums) yet don't consider themselves into Prog. Thick as a Brick, and Jethro Tull generally, was well liked by most of my friends when I was growing up, yet I don't know if any of them were Progheads. It was just another good album by another good band we listened to (along with Pink Floyd, Santana, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, The Who, CCR, CSN etc.)
There is such variety when it comes to what we consider Prog here at PA. I think one could like a great deal of Progressive Folk without being a Proghead. I think the same could be said of Psych/ Space, and then of course a great many Progheads would not derive much enjoyment from several categories here. The Symph fan may not like Kraut, the Neo fan may not like RIO etc.
Edited by Logan - December 10 2008 at 12:21
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:14 |
slaver wrote:
I agree - although I somewhat enjoy Opeth's music now Dream Theater or Symphony X would destroy any of the Extreme genre musically. I understand your liking for the plain Metal bands but after a while they all sounded samey to me. |
That's actually quite difficult to justify without a firm knowledge of all the Extreme bands - the bands are not all painted from the same Painter's Palette (  ). it's like comparing Canterbury with Math Rock - whether one could wipe the floor with the other depends upon which side of the fence you sit. I find myself liking bands from the Extreme and Experimental Metal subgenres more than "pure" Prog Metal, but it's not a competitive sport.
Edited by Dean - December 10 2008 at 12:18
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What?
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progmetalhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:10 |
crimson87 wrote:
Besides he is talking about CTTE!!!!! |
One person out of a world population of 6 billion + incorrectly classified a Yes album is one of the reasons you dislike Prog Metal!
Well I guess if the case against Prog Metal being Prog has come to that then I rest my case my lord!
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:01 |
Besides he is talking about CTTE!!!!!
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:59 |
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I agree - although I somewhat enjoy Opeth's music now Dream Theater or Symphony X would destroy any of the Extreme genre musically. I understand your liking for the plain Metal bands but after a while they all sounded samey to me.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:54 |
slaver wrote:
I don't know about badass! Dream Theater has been at the level of almost extreme Metal on occasion but Octavarium was very Floydish to me. |
That's what I mean, they can play circles around most if not all "plain metal" bands, that's including all the extreme metal subgenres but somehow I find those plain metal bands more enjoyable. Agree, not only Pink Floyd, but some of Ruddess's work in the title track reminded me of Emerson/Banks.
Edited by rogerthat - December 10 2008 at 11:55
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