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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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 Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:29 |
 rogerthat wrote:
And did I mention that there are borderline cases in prog rock too?  As I said, it would clear a lot of confusion if a majority of users on this website understood prog metal but that is not possible without first understanding metal and that, dear me, is a hard road unless you are a metalhead. |
Good point Rogerthat, as a fact, I believe Prog Metal is the only sub-genre in which a fan doesn't need to be a Proghead to like and understand a band.
I believe that fans of Metal will like many Prog Metal bands even if they don't heard the word Progressive Rock before, in comparison with albums as Foxtrot, Close to the Edge or Thick as a Brick, in which you need to be a Proghead to really love them as we do.
On the other hand, many Progheads (I would dare to say the vast majority) may like any sub-genre except Prog Metal, because the metal elements are so obvious and preeminent, that the Prog component is hidden for us.
Understanding Metal is hard, I admit that ourside lets say Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden and AC/DC, I heard very little Metal, I don't care for growls of so extended solos, I'm not a metal man.
Iván
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:34 |
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Hey Ivan - please listen to One hour by the concrete lake by Pain ........... I'm sure you'll like it or Octavarium by Dream Theater. They are purely harder forms of the old Genesis, Yes etc etc.... Again I'll advocate Karmakanic which is definately not Prog Rock - it's decidedly prog metal to me. Or has elements of both.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:35 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Very convinient to hide behind: Non-PM collaborators don't understand this sub genre. Maybe the PM collaborators don't understand the main Progrock genre who's site they keep adding all these metalbands in? ... and that's why people who don't listen to this genre 90% of the time disagrees every now and then?
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You are not being too charitable, are you? I think most people in the PM team are prog rock fans in general too. And I get back to the same point I made at the start: it's not for me to say whether prog metal should be on this website or not but if it is, then prog METAL has to be included, not PROG metal. In other words, you cannot go looking for progginess in the way of vintage prog bands in prog metal bands, you will pretty much draw a blank. |
I agree with you Roger in the case of the PM Collaborators, I read very intelligent comments and protests gfrom guys like Mike and The T (To mention 2) about bands being added to other genres, they are Progheads and Mealheads, that's why they are in the team, but that's not the case of many Progmetalheads.
I remember a review written by a one time visitor who said:
"Close to the Edge must be the worst Prog metal album, only in the keyboards you listen some Metal sounds"
The guy didn't even knew there was something called progressive Rock, he believed Prog was a term that only made sense attached to the suffix Metal.
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:37 |
slaver wrote:
Hey Ivan - please listen to One hour by the concrete lake by Pain ........... I'm sure you'll like it or Octavarium by Dream Theater. They are purely harder forms of the old Genesis, Yes etc etc.... Again I'll advocate Karmakanic which is definately not Prog Rock - it's decidedly prog metal to me. Or has elements of both. |
Bo Slaver, I tried DT, I heard all their albums, bought the DVD, bought a couple of albums, but still can't stand them.
If you talk about Pain of Salvation, yes, it's a band that I can listen.
Iván
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:38 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66264
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:41 |
To my ears, 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song, and of course that has been around since the 1960's. I am also of the opinion that Relayer is the Yes metal album. I know that others say that it is Yes' RIO/Avant album, but there are some guitar and keyboards riffs within Gates of Delirium that are as heavy and fast as many prog metal bands.
Of course the same posters that are on the anti-prog metal side of this argument are also Rush haters and don't feel that they belong on PA either, but again even though Rush are listed under Heavy Prog, in my opinion there is quite a bit of prog metal happening within their music too.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:41 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[
"Close to the Edge must be the worst Prog metal album, only in the keyboards you listen some Metal sounds"
The guy didn't even knew there was something called progressive Rock, he believed Prog was a term that only made sense attached to the suffix Metal.
Iván |
Hahahaha. Actually Wakeman should be proud that this guy thought he was so metal. 
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:42 |
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Hi Ivan - all a matter of taste - Scenes from a Memory (especially orchestrated in the Live DVD) blew my mind like only Yes or Genesis ever could. The latest (and previous) Karmakanic album is, to me, a crossover between prog rock and prog Metal! It stunned me!!!!
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:45 |
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Rushfan - Rush - as I'm sure you'll agree- definately belong here!!!! A Rush hater??? Hey - how could anyone be a Rush hater!!! The album 2112 alone demands their space as prog!!!!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:47 |
rushfan4 wrote:
To my ears, 21st Century Schizoid Man was the first prog metal song, and of course that has been around since the 1960's. I
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I would call KC and VDGG PROG metal, though no such subgenre is recognized of course. Also Il Balletto Di Bronzo's Ys album. As an aside, though in point of fact, DT have more metal elements than these three bands, in spirit, they were far more badass.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:50 |
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I don't know about badass! Dream Theater has been at the level of almost extreme Metal on occasion but Octavarium was very Floydish to me.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:54 |
slaver wrote:
I don't know about badass! Dream Theater has been at the level of almost extreme Metal on occasion but Octavarium was very Floydish to me. |
That's what I mean, they can play circles around most if not all "plain metal" bands, that's including all the extreme metal subgenres but somehow I find those plain metal bands more enjoyable. Agree, not only Pink Floyd, but some of Ruddess's work in the title track reminded me of Emerson/Banks.
Edited by rogerthat - December 10 2008 at 11:55
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 11:59 |
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I agree - although I somewhat enjoy Opeth's music now Dream Theater or Symphony X would destroy any of the Extreme genre musically. I understand your liking for the plain Metal bands but after a while they all sounded samey to me.
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crimson87
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 03 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 1818
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:01 |
Besides he is talking about CTTE!!!!!
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progmetalhead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 15 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:10 |
crimson87 wrote:
Besides he is talking about CTTE!!!!! |
 One person out of a world population of 6 billion + incorrectly classified a Yes album is one of the reasons you dislike Prog Metal!
Well I guess if the case against Prog Metal being Prog has come to that then I rest my case my lord!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:14 |
slaver wrote:
I agree - although I somewhat enjoy Opeth's music now Dream Theater or Symphony X would destroy any of the Extreme genre musically. I understand your liking for the plain Metal bands but after a while they all sounded samey to me. |
That's actually quite difficult to justify without a firm knowledge of all the Extreme bands - the bands are not all painted from the same Painter's Palette (  ). it's like comparing Canterbury with Math Rock - whether one could wipe the floor with the other depends upon which side of the fence you sit. I find myself liking bands from the Extreme and Experimental Metal subgenres more than "pure" Prog Metal, but it's not a competitive sport.
Edited by Dean - December 10 2008 at 12:18
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Online
Points: 35894
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:15 |
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I don't know that one need be a Proghead to like and understand Progressive Electronic bands. I know quite a few, for instance, who love Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk (including their more difficult albums) yet don't consider themselves into Prog. Thick as a Brick, and Jethro Tull generally, was well liked by most of my friends when I was growing up, yet I don't know if any of them were Progheads. It was just another good album by another good band we listened to (along with Pink Floyd, Santana, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, The Who, CCR, CSN etc.)
There is such variety when it comes to what we consider Prog here at PA. I think one could like a great deal of Progressive Folk without being a Proghead. I think the same could be said of Psych/ Space, and then of course a great many Progheads would not derive much enjoyment from several categories here. The Symph fan may not like Kraut, the Neo fan may not like RIO etc.
Edited by Logan - December 10 2008 at 12:21
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:38 |
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Hi Dean - I can hear what Petrucci's and Portnoy's and the rest of the Bands technical skill is purely by listening!!! Many call it musical w**king but I don't agree. If you got it flaunt it!!!!! I must admit that I'm trying to get into extreme technical Metal and I am starting to enjoy some of it - but nothing there thus far has shown me the skill of a Petrucci, a Malmsteen, a Portnoy or in fact a Bonham or a Paice.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 12:49 |
slaver wrote:
Hi Dean - I can hear what Petrucci's and Portnoy's and the rest of the Bands technical skill is purely by listening!!! Many call it musical w**king but I don't agree. If you got it flaunt it!!!!! I must admit that I'm trying to get into extreme technical Metal and I am starting to enjoy some of it - but nothing there thus far has shown me the skill of a Petrucci, a Malmsteen, a Portnoy or in fact a Bonham or a Paice. |
Ah, you're talking technical virtuosity - again, subgenre has little bearing on that - in fact Petrucci as a solo artist is in Extreme Metal - as is Bozzio and Sheehan (and Bozzio as a drummer is in a different league to Portnoy IMO) - However, Extreme is not about instrumental virtuosity as much as it is about composition and texture (a I believe Opeth are gradualy moving away from Extreme so are not the best example of what Extreme Metal is). I'd recommend listening to Arcturus, Frantic Bleep or Ephel Duath as examples of how Extreme can take Metal beyond "metal" and into completely different dimensions.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 492
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Posted: December 10 2008 at 13:13 |
Hey Dean - The extreme Metal guys just battled for days to get me to listen to and like Opeth. I hated extreme metal before. Now you tell me that Opeth aint extreme metal no more!!! Holy Cow - Back to the drawing board again!!!!!
By the way - thanks for sorting my name for me - when I heard you would assist I thought Oh No - he's gonna put me into internet ether!!!! Can't say that sometimes I haven't deserved it. Now - about Korn..........
LOL
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