Necrophagist, Yay or Nay?

Strapping Young Lad deserves to be on here before any of the above mentioned bands. 

Great you brought SYL up Jake.

Well my friend it seems that you and me have totally different parametres as to what is progressive. That´s the great thing about this forum of course. But ask yourself this question: If you only wanted artists here that invented genres or did something new there wouldn´t be many artists on PA. Is that really what you wish for ?

UMUR wrote: Well my friend it seems that you and me have totally different parametres as to what is progressive. That´s the great thing about this forum of course. But ask yourself this question: If you only wanted artists here that invented genres or did something new there wouldn´t be many artists on PA. Is that really what you wish for ?

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Edited by Certif1ed - October 15 2008 at 16:14

UMUR wrote: Necrophagist is ultra brutal death metal first and foremost, but that doesn´t mean they shouldn´t be on PA IMO. I think there are lots of elements on Epitaph that should earn them a place here. First of all because of the extreme virtuosity displayed. There are time signature changes here and there that is not ordinary on other death metal albums and of course the beautiful classical influenced sweeping guitar solos. I´ll admit that necrophagist is on the edge of what PA should include, but they are not much different from other tech death metal bands which are already included on this site: Martyr, Gorod and Death for instance.   And Logan: Cephalic Carnage. Oh Yeah why not. Great innovative band. They are most definitely progressive IMO.   Not so long ago I suggested Decapitated to the metal team and sadly they turned them down. That´s another tech death metal band I´m having a hard time understanding why people don´t want on PA.   Cryptopsy ? Anyone ?   The list is long and I can probably find a few more in a heartbeat, but it seems that the nay sayers have a hard time differentiating between ultra fast and brutal death metal like Suffocation and ultra fast and brutal tech death metal like Necrophagist. There´s a difference IMO and that difference should earn at least some of the most obvious tech death metal bands a place on PA.

I know all these bands fairly well.
The "classically influenced sweeping" is more the result of influence from 80s neo classical metal guitarists.
You see, while the original 80s innovators were genuinely influenced by Baroque music, many of today's neo-classical shredders like Muhammed Suiçmez, are influenced not by the baroque music, but the 80s neo-classical guitarists like Yngwie Malmsteen, and the effec that this has is that the actual classical influence is watered down.
Compositionally Necrophagist really are a death metal band, I don't really hear classical music at all in their music.
By the time it gets to this watered down level, the apparent "classical-ness" you hear is extremely "Superficial" at best and merely just uses baroque melodic motifs, arpeggiated lines (such as the sweep picked arpeggios), pedal point lines etc, without going as far as using complex classical forms, more complex musical devices like counterpoint, polyphony et al (techniques demonstrated in the band Cacophony).
And if you think time signature changes/use of odd time in death metal is odd... well no offense, but I don't think you're heard much very death metal at all.

Cryptopsy ? Anyone ?

Great band, but just a tech death band mate.
Technical complexity, sure, but no serious development happens compositionally at all.

"Not so long ago I suggested Decapitated to the metal team and sadly they turned them down. That´s another tech death metal band I´m having a hard time understanding why people don´t want on PA."

There you go... you yourself even listed a reason why they weren't add... they're tech death. Tech death does not=tech prog death.
Again, great band IMO, nothing against them, but hardly suited for this site.



Now that I mention Cacophony, they are clearly more progressive than any of the bands you listed... they used counterpoint, polyphony, were extremely innovative in the field of virtuosic electric guitar, at least had some compositional development to their songs as well.
But yet, I sure as hell wouldn't suggest them.

Think about it, if a band like Cacophony has no chance of being in PA... how can bands clearly less progressive and compostionally complex like Necrophagist, Decapitated ad Cryptopsy have a chance?

Cacophony had a fair amount of innovation going, but due to their lack of popularity, their influence on modern metal is not that great (but if you look around, they have their devoted fans and bands that are heavily influenced by them).








Edited by HughesJB4 - October 16 2008 at 01:06

UMUR wrote: I don´t give much of a damn about who influenced Death ( of course I know both Seven Churches and Painkiller),

UMUR wrote: Our opinions on what is progressive just differs from each other. As I stated before I think challenging ( mildly or obvious) music is progressive and that includes tech death metal like Necrophagist and Decapitated too.   "well no offense, but I don't think you're heard much very death metal at all."  I´m not sure if this is an offense, but I´ve listened to metal for the last twenty years. I believe I know a thing or two. Again it comes down to different opinions on what is progressive. Death metal comes in many forms and shapes and there´s a big diffence between the old school sound of bands like Obituary, Dismember and Cannibal Corpse and the more technical bands in the genre.   In regards to your statement that Muhammed Suiçmez is influenced by neo classical guitar heroes from the eighties like Yngwie rather than actual classical music, I fully agree, but that doesn´t mean that his playing isn´t challenging ( and in my world progressive).   Marty Friedman and Jason Becker´s Cacophony. Interesting band for sure. I have one of their albums, but their style never really excited me. I haven´t heard enough to evaluate if I think they would fit on PA though. I think that album ended up in the basement somehow.

I don't dispute that Muhammed Suiçmez isn't challenging. He would probably laugh at me if I tried to emulate his level of technique in front of him...my sweep picking sucks sh*t compared to his.
But you don't explain what is "progressive" about his playing, you merely say IT IS.

"Death metal comes in many forms and shapes and there´s a big diffence between the old school sound of bands like Obituary, Dismember and Cannibal Corpse and the more technical bands in the genre"

Correct, but bands like Necrophagist and Nile are just more modern sounding and technical, no more progressive in any way or form.

"Marty Friedman and Jason Becker´s Cacophony. Interesting band for sure. I have one of their albums, but their style never really excited me. I haven´t heard enough to evaluate if I think they would fit on PA though. I think that album ended up in the basement somehow"

Trust me, their music is more complex than anything any straight Tech Death band has to offer.
But I still wouldn't call Cacophony prog by any stretch of the imagination.

UMUR wrote: My winky was a a good humoured tease. Nothing else. I of course respect your opinion even though it´s very different from mine.   If you look at my profile I think you´ll find that I have other interests than extreme metal.   Judas Priest. Hell Yeah finally we agree on something. I´m not a big fan but I love both Rocka Rolla and Sad Wings of Destiny and I think they deserve to be here in the prog-related or proto-prog catagory with Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath. Most of the rest of their output are a bit too macho leather raise your fists in the air metal for my taste. They´ve made lots of classic heavy metal songs I´ll aknowledge that though ( including Painkiller of course). I think there´s an active thread for Judas Priest inclusion already by the way.   Well it still comes down to this: Are Necrophagist worthy of inclusion on PA in the tech/ extreme prog metal catagory? This poll shows that it´s a break even and with so many nays it´s doubtful that it will ever happen. Too bad IMO. Honestly, the poll means jack sh*t and nearly always does. It was entirely meaningless in the Metallica debate and for many other bands too. Necrophagist are not worth of inclusion, not because of the poll, but because of their musical characteristics.   To Hughes who wrote:   I don't dispute that Muhammed Suiçmez isn't challenging. He would probably laugh at me if I tried to emulate his level of technique in front of him...my sweep picking sucks sh*t compared to his.But you don't explain what is "progressive" about his playing, you merely say IT IS.   I already explained that unlike you and Certif1ed I consider technical playing to be a progressive. I really can´t explain it better than that. So what level of technical playing qualifies as progressive you´ll probably ask? Hard to tell but Necrophagist has a couple of things going for them as I wrote in my first post that I consider progressive and should win them a place on PA. ( I´d much rather see Decapitated here though)

If technical playing was considered progressive, let's add Ozzy Osbourne's first two records with the brilliant Randy Rhoads at the helm, let's add Van Halen's rather simple hard rock records to the Archives too.

You do realize, if technical playing was enough to be considered progressive, PA would have thousands and thousands more artists who make music with no real connection to prog at all.
Let's see, we can add Joe Satriani according to your reasoning, Guthrie Govan, Shawn Lane, Megadeth, Greg Howe, Vinnie Moore, Malmsteen, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman,.. and the list would take me another 12 hours to compile, you get what I mean.

Technical playing is just an element of prog... and not even exclusive to prog at that.

Technical playing is just one thing I consider progressive in Necrophagist music. I agree that technical playing is only an element in prog but compared to Ozzy Osbourne or any of the other artists you mention all members of Necrophagist are technically skilled. Besides I don´t hear Ozzy Osbourne or Van Halen playing with time signatures which is another thing I consider progressive. In fact I´m pretty sure everything they ever played were in 4/4 ( maybe with the odd exception).