The Stranglers???

BaldJean wrote: splyu wrote: BaldJean wrote: it is a well-known fact that the Stranglers only jumped on the punk wagon for commercial reasons. their music has nothing in common with punk at all though; you have to deliberately close your ears to believe that for one moment only. Well... I'm afraid I'll have to disagree again. "Their music has nothing in common with punk at all" seems a pretty bold statement to me. Just listening to that "Toiler on the Sea" clip again reminded me why I've always found it difficult to get into them; precisely because of the punk element. The vocals in particular, if those aren't punk vocals (in the slightly broader sense of the word), then I really don't know... again though, this is not to argue they don't belong here; I think I'd be quite comfortable describing them as prog punk, which is by all means "good enough" for me. huh? where is the punk element in "Toiler on the Sea"?

In the music, right there. (Not "just in the image"). I hear this song, and it's obviously punk to me. Prog punk or sophisticated punk or post-punk or you-name-it-punk, but still punk. If you won't acknowledge that... well, I don't know what to say; I can only assume that your view of punk might be just as narrow as some people's view of prog (the ones who are against including them on this site, for instance). The Stranglers, as far as I'm familiar with them anyway, fit comfortably into my view of punk and prog.

...as I said 3 pages ago, PE's Post Rock tag for them is "an utter misfit if I ever saw one" -  IMO there is nothing Post Rock or even Proto-Post Rock about The Strangers' music, if anything it is the antithesis of Post Rock, and perhaps they meant Post-Punk.

it is a well-known fact that the Stranglers only jumped on the punk wagon for commercial reasons. their music has nothing in common with punk at all though; you have to deliberately close your ears to believe that for one moment only. but I give up; I am tired of praying common sense to those who don't want to hear it. leave them out if the majority decides so. I have already stated my votum seperatum and stick to it. it is enough for me to know that Certif1ied agrees with Friede and me; I value his opinion very highly.
by the way: I honestly hear more progressive rock in the Stranglers than in any neo-prog band


Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 18:42

BaldJean wrote: it is not the sole defining feature; you can be prog without using polyphony. however, it IS a difficult technique; most bands only manage to produce pseudo-polyphony (meaning 1 voice played by 2 different instruments) or playing in quint parallels. those are not examples of polyphony though. the important thing about polyphony is that the two voices have to be INDEPENDENT, and that's not so easily accomplished.

Yes, I know what it is. I just disagree about it being difficult to accomplish.

splyu wrote: BaldJean wrote: Takeshi Kovacs wrote: Yes my reference was intended to relate to the lack of multi part vocal harmonies, not instrumental harmonies  as I said; very few bands have that. VdGG and especially Hammill solo does. Gentle Giant and sometimes Yes do. but it is very rare that you have polyphony there, even with many different vocals; mostly it is only pseudo-polyphony. very often it is just parallel quints (a technique which is considered a definite no-no in classical music, by the way). Can't help but feel that this thing about polyphony being a "very advanced technique" has been overstated in this thread. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head which prog bands do or do not use it, but seriously, it's not that hard to do. Not really at all. (And I'm not sure about it being a defining feature of prog either... if few prog bands use it, as you said, how could it be a defining feature?) Don't get me wrong though, I'm not arguing against their inclusion. For what it's worth, I voted "perhaps"... I'm not really familiar enough with them to say for sure, but a guy I used to know quite well would name them as his favourite band, but hardly listened to any punk (some post-punk though), but was very big on Genesis, Rush and King Crimson. He used to describe them as "the only punk band that also did prog".

it is not the sole defining feature; you can be prog without using polyphony. however, it IS a difficult technique; most bands only manage to produce pseudo-polyphony (meaning 1 voice played by 2 different instruments) or playing in quint parallels. those are not examples of polyphony though. the important thing about polyphony is that the two voices have to be INDEPENDENT, and that's not so easily accomplished.
the technique can however be practiced. and it is something I do on a regular basis. whenever I hear a simple pop song played somewhere I sing an improvised second voice to it. that has often given me laughs from people who think I missed the tune completely but who actually have no idea what I did

The term dates back to 1975 actually, but has been refined somewhat before it became a popular phrase.

I suspect they see Stranglers over there as belonging into the musical segment of post rock prehistory though - as outlined like this at wiki:

--

Post-rock appears to take a heavy influence from late '60s U.S. group The Velvet Underground and their "dronology" — "a term that loosely describes fifty percent of today's post rock activity."^[10]

The "Krautrock" of the 1960s and '70s would also exert a strong influence on post-rock, particularly via the "motorik", or characteristic rhythm of much Krautrock.

British group Public Image Ltd (PiL) were also pioneers, described by the NME^[11] as "[a]rguably the first post-rock group." Their second album Metal Box (1979) almost completely abandoned traditional rock and roll structures in favor of dense, repetitive dub- and krautrock-inspired soundscapes and John Lydon's cryptic, stream-of-consciousness lyrics. The year before Metal Box was released, PiL bassist Jah Wobble declared, "rock is obsolete."^[12] Flowers of Romance (1981), their third album, was an even more radical departure, emphasizing rattling percussion and abstract tape music.

The shoegazing movement of the late 1980s and early '90s was also a predecessor of post rock, with bands like My Bloody Valentine devoting as much, or more, attention to unorthodox, layered guitar textures than to traditional guitar sounds.

---------------

I'll check with Floyd if you really want to know the exact reasoning behind their inclusion of course ;-)

BaldJean wrote: Takeshi Kovacs wrote: Yes my reference was intended to relate to the lack of multi part vocal harmonies, not instrumental harmonies  as I said; very few bands have that. VdGG and especially Hammill solo does. Gentle Giant and sometimes Yes do. but it is very rare that you have polyphony there, even with many different vocals; mostly it is only pseudo-polyphony. very often it is just parallel quints (a technique which is considered a definite no-no in classical music, by the way).

Can't help but feel that this thing about polyphony being a "very advanced technique" has been overstated in this thread. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head which prog bands do or do not use it, but seriously, it's not that hard to do. Not really at all. (And I'm not sure about it being a defining feature of prog either... if few prog bands use it, as you said, how could it be a defining feature?)

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not arguing against their inclusion. For what it's worth, I voted "perhaps"... I'm not really familiar enough with them to say for sure, but a guy I used to know quite well would name them as his favourite band, but hardly listened to any punk (some post-punk though), but was very big on Genesis, Rush and King Crimson. He used to describe them as "the only punk band that also did prog".

Great, as soon as The Stranglers are mentioned

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 12 2008 at 17:13

BaldJean wrote: read the post I posted immediately before yours, Ivan. there is no real polyphony in the Mamas and the Papas

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 12 2008 at 17:05

Windhawk wrote: Interesting customer review found at Amazon - for their Laid Black album:   If I'm not wrong, bedsides PA you write for Progressor Progressive Ears (Edit..My mistake, PE has them) GEPR Has any of this PROGRSSIVE ROCK SITES included The Stranglers? Have you proposed them for addition? And if you had..What had they answered?   Since when must we trust more in a store like Amazon than in Prog sites?? "If you're a fan of The Stranglers (and if you're not, shame on you) then this album of "unplugged" music by Ian Anderson's favorite band should be at the top of your must-haves.   Tha fact that Ian Anderson likes it doesn't mean a thing. The Stranglers have always been one of the most under-appreciated MELODIC masters in the so-called "Punk/New Wave" roster, a label which does not even begin to do them justice. Again, a solitarie that disagrees with everyone   This album beautifully showcases the underlying instrumental, rhythmic and tonal strengths of The Stranglers, without sacrificing their dark, slightly off-kilter (in a good way) take on tonality.   Listen to the seductive rhythms and harmonies of "Southern Mountains" or the gothic/baroque arrangements (masterfully played) of "Golden Brown" and "Strange Little Girl" and you'd almost swear you were listening to one of the best progressive-rock bands you'd never heard of, and yet there is no mistaking The Stranglers unique style.   You'd almost swear. doesn't mean you're before a Prog band...If you notice, he only mentions two songs for this pseudo Gothic/Baroque arrangements (Golden Brown and Strange Life). One of my favorite albums of all-time." Again, this means nothing except for Mr XSpace who never wrote any other review in Amazon. If not for anything else, it seems that this album is a very good place to start if one wants to check out the bands credentials when it comes to inclusion or not at this site. So now we must start with Amazon instread of Prog Archives, Progressor and GEPR? Isn't it cutrious than in 30 years only one Prog site has added them?   Honestly I doubt it.   Cheers   Iván   BTW: We are talking about an UNPLUGGED album, tha sounds totally different to what they doone before, Have you verified if there's any review about the ORIGINAL studio albums from which this songs come?

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 12 2008 at 18:40