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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 07:31 |
BaldFriede wrote:
ANY band that uses polyphony for their songs should be considered prog; it is in my opinion a decisive criterion.
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absolutely. if that is not a clear criterion, then what is?
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Takeshi Kovacs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2454
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 08:25 |
Is that the single critierion that defines an artist as prog?
In other words, is the suggestion that any band using polyphony can be considered prog, and worthy of inclusion here?
Edited by Takeshi Kovacs - October 12 2008 at 08:26
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 09:46 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Is that the single critierion that defines an artist as prog?
In other words, is the suggestion that any band using polyphony can be considered prog, and worthy of inclusion here?
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indeed, if a band uses polyphony, it can in my opinion be considered as prog. that is by far not the single criterion for a prog band though; most prog bands don't use polyphony; it is a very advanced technique. but a band that uses it definitely is a prog band. anyway, that's by far not the only criterion why the Stranglers belong. on the contrary, please name a criterion why they should NOT belong. and a musical criterion please, not just some definitely untrue statement like "the Stranglers are punk" (nonsense) or "they did not feel as part of the progressive movement" (neither did King Crimson or Van der Graaf Generator). their musical structures are of a very advanced nature, and we should consider them prog for that but let us cite our own criteria: -
Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate
melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These
are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to
classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink
Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick"
(43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis'
"Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the
60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and
"Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings. check, at least on the intricate melodies and harmonies. no 20-minute compositions, but a seminal band like Gentle Giant didn't have them either
- Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives,
covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion,
war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands
(especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing
politics and social issues. check
-
Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an
entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of
vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed
gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by
Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more
recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and
Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by
Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring
themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album
is just "a bunch of songs". "Black and White" is a concept album of sorts, though the concept is a loose one
-
Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands do
-
Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard
instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer,
in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and
drums. check
-
Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use
multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo
passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the
virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to
the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer
Neil Peart. check. use of polyphony should be named here too
-
Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their
concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and
Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by
Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera,
and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull
recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned
the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to
Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra
(The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired
by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart. no check, but this part is a bit cheesy anyway
- An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by
The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the
prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of
their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the
band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular
artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings
and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they
could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding.
Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink
Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for
the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover
of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and
Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves
ever produced. check
conclusion? draw it yourself
Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 10:24
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Takeshi Kovacs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2454
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:06 |
From the Prog Archives section: A definition of Progressive Rock Music1 'Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop'
The Stranglers in my opinion did the opposite of this embracing the 3 minute 'pop' tracks such as No More Heroes / Golden Brown.
2 'Long compositions, sometimes
running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that
require repeated listening to grasp.....often described as epics....'.
Do The Stranglers have any?
I realise that these are only two areas in a much wider definition of the term Prog.
Perhaps you might suggest which sub-genre they might fall into, and why, as you will have a much better knowledge of their music than I do. To be honest, if they are included or not, I'm not bothered either way..I just don't think I'll ever associate them with being related to the progressive rock movement.
Edit - just noticed you pre-empted some of these issues with your edited post - let me have a read.
Edited by Takeshi Kovacs - October 12 2008 at 10:07
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:07 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
From the Prog Archives section: A definition of Progressive Rock Music1 'Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop'
The Stranglers in my opinion did the opposite of this embracing the 3 minute 'pop' tracks such as No More Heroes / Golden Brown.
2 'Long compositions, sometimes
running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that
require repeated listening to grasp.....often described as epics....'.
Do The Stranglers have any?
I realise that these are only two areas in a much wider definition of the term Prog.
Perhaps you might suggest which sub-genre they might fall into, and why, as you will have a much better knowledge of their music than I do. To be honest, if they are included or not, I'm not bothered either way..I just don't think I'll ever associate them with being related to the progressive rock movement.
Edit - just noticed you pre-empted some of these issues with your edited post - let me have a read.
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read my previous post
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:13 |
very nice Jean...as I said... still digesting the band in case this comes our way, and seems it might, and have no opinion on this... yet at least. First impression is though, the main and prevalent argument AGAINST them is bullsh*t but nice rebuttal.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Takeshi Kovacs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2454
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:28 |
BaldJean wrote:
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Is that the single critierion that defines an artist as prog?
In other words, is the suggestion that any band using polyphony can be considered prog, and worthy of inclusion here?
|
indeed, if a band uses polyphony, it can in my opinion be considered as prog. that is by far not the single criterion for a prog band though; most prog bands don't use polyphony; it is a very advanced technique. but a band that uses it definitely is a prog band. anyway, that's by far not the only criterion why the Stranglers belong. on the contrary, please name a criterion why they should NOT belong. and a musical criterion please, not just some definitely untrue statement like "the Stranglers are punk" (nonsense) or "they did not feel as part of the progressive movement" (neither did King Crimson or Van der Graaf Generator). their musical structures are of a very advanced nature, and we should consider them prog for that but let us cite our own criteria:
-
Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate
melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These
are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to
classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink
Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick"
(43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis'
"Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the
60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and
"Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings. check, at least on the intricate melodies and harmonies. no 20-minute compositions, but a seminal band like Gentle Giant didn't have them either
- Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives,
covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion,
war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands
(especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing
politics and social issues. check
-
Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an
entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of
vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed
gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by
Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more
recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and
Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by
Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring
themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album
is just "a bunch of songs". "Black and White" is a concept album of sorts, though the concept is a loose one
-
Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands do
-
Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard
instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer,
in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and
drums. check
-
Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use
multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo
passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the
virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to
the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer
Neil Peart. check
-
Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their
concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and
Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by
Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera,
and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull
recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned
the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to
Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra
(The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired
by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart. no check, but this part is a bit cheesy anyway
- An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by
The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the
prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of
their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the
band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular
artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings
and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they
could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding.
Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink
Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for
the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover
of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and
Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves
ever produced. check
conclusion? draw it yourself
|
OK - so we're saying they don't have an epic type tracks, or long tracks that typically characterise progressive rock music (they do have a proliferation of short songs, some of which seemed tailored towards being popular chart hits), they have an album that can be 'loosely', described as a concept album (of sorts), and they haven't used the unusual vocal styles / multi part harmonies or shown the inclusion of classical works (dismissed as 'cheesy'). The above items are areas where the don't fulfil (some of the) requirements of being a progressive rock band. You asked for some of these to be identified. On the other hand, you pointed out a few areas where they might well be considered progressive: time signatures, link with art, electronic instrumentation etc. Let the jury decide. As I said earlier, good music is good music, so I'm not too concerned about whether the Archives are opened up to bands like this (others may be)...it's just my personal opinion that their music has never suggested 'progressive rock' to me.
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:32 |
and now I await the arguments for NOT including them
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:33 |
Guys, guys, take it easy, you still have 630 posts to go before all the arguments will be exhausted, and the Admins will conclude that "though admittingly not prog, it is justified to relate them to prog".
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:38 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Is that the single critierion that defines an artist as prog?
In other words, is the suggestion that any band using polyphony can be considered prog, and worthy of inclusion here?
|
indeed, if a band uses polyphony, it can in my opinion be considered as prog. that is by far not the single criterion for a prog band though; most prog bands don't use polyphony; it is a very advanced technique. but a band that uses it definitely is a prog band. anyway, that's by far not the only criterion why the Stranglers belong. on the contrary, please name a criterion why they should NOT belong. and a musical criterion please, not just some definitely untrue statement like "the Stranglers are punk" (nonsense) or "they did not feel as part of the progressive movement" (neither did King Crimson or Van der Graaf Generator). their musical structures are of a very advanced nature, and we should consider them prog for that but let us cite our own criteria:
-
Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate
melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These
are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to
classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink
Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick"
(43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis'
"Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the
60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and
"Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings. check, at least on the intricate melodies and harmonies. no 20-minute compositions, but a seminal band like Gentle Giant didn't have them either
- Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives,
covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion,
war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands
(especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing
politics and social issues. check
-
Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an
entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of
vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed
gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on
Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by
Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more
recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and
Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by
Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring
themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album
is just "a bunch of songs". "Black and White" is a concept album of sorts, though the concept is a loose one
-
Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands do
-
Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard
instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer,
in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and
drums. check
-
Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use
multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo
passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the
virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to
the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer
Neil Peart. check
-
Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their
concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and
Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by
Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera,
and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull
recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned
the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to
Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra
(The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired
by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart. no check, but this part is a bit cheesy anyway
- An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by
The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the
prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of
their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the
band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular
artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings
and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they
could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding.
Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink
Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for
the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover
of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and
Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves
ever produced. check
conclusion? draw it yourself
|
OK - so we're saying they don't have an epic type tracks, or long tracks that typically characterise progressive rock music (they do have a proliferation of short songs, some of which seemed tailored towards being popular chart hits), they have an album that can be 'loosely', described as a concept album (of sorts), and they haven't used the unusual vocal styles / multi part harmonies or shown the inclusion of classical works (dismissed as 'cheesy').
The above items are areas where the don't fulfil (some of the) requirements of being a progressive rock band. You asked for some of these to be identified.
On the other hand, you pointed out a few areas where they might well be considered progressive: time signatures, link with art, electronic instrumentation etc.
Let the jury decide. As I said earlier, good music is good music, so I'm not too concerned about whether the Archives are opened up to bands like this (others may be)...it's just my personal opinion that their music has never suggested 'progressive rock' to me.
|
you are wrong about the "multi-part harmonies"; that's what polyphony is all about. it is in fact one of the main criteria of the music of the Stranglers. if you don't believe me listen to a "simple" song like "Toiler on the Sea" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVgxFcARXI4the interplay between guitar and keyboards is EXACTLY that, as is the interplay between keyboards and vocals
Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 10:49
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Takeshi Kovacs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2454
|
Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:53 |
Regarding the multi-part harmonies issue ...I was merely referencing your earlier concession that this didn't really characterise the music of the Stranglers. I'm not saying that it's not within your rights to change your mind within this short space of time however.
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:55 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Regarding the multi-part harmonies issue ...I was merely referencing your earlier concession that this didn't really characterise the music of the Stranglers. I'm not saying that it's not within your rights to change your mind within this short space of time however.
|
I never said that. I said it is not that alone which marks them as prog. but it is one of the main characteristics of their music. you must have misunderstood me there. you have my list
Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 10:56
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Jon The Impaler
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 10 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 42
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 10:57 |
These aren't probably long songs by many people's standards on here but :
Down in the sewer ( Rattus Norvegicus album ) - runs at over 7 minutes and has 4 distinct parts to it.
Walk on By - though not their own composition , the single ran at well over 6 minutes including a huge instrumental bit in the middle.
Concept albums - someone mentioned Black & White - The Stranglers certainly didn't go into that one with intentions of it being a concept album ......... but........
The Meninblack - this wholly investigated the alien/UFO theme throughout ( SciFi concept as well )
La Folie - investigated the idea of love , including a song about cannibalism in which ( true story apparently ) a Frenchman ate his girlfriend and argued it was because he loved her so much .
Meninblack also contained two instrumental songs on it ( unheard of generally in punk circles ) .
I argued AGAINST inclusion here , but possibly there is a case for , though I know little about prog - I'm arguing against my own thoughts here .
The Stranglers certainly are hard to pigeon hole , JJ says he was a punk these days , the band play many punk conventions ..... yet at the same time JJ also says the band were better than the punk bands of the time.
The Stranglers are really , to me , just The Stranglers . My favourite band , doesn't really matter what they are or who likes them . I like much punk music - a lot is a lot better than people imagine , but there's also some dire stuff too .
Its all down to what the individual thinks really and at the end of the day , does it matter that much anyway ?
Just enjoy the music .
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Its expensive being poor
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Takeshi Kovacs
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2454
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 11:20 |
BaldJean wrote:
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Regarding the multi-part harmonies issue ...I was merely referencing your earlier concession that this didn't really characterise the music of the Stranglers. I'm not saying that it's not within your rights to change your mind within this short space of time however.
|
I never said that. I said it is not that alone which marks them as prog. but it is one of the main characteristics of their music. you must have misunderstood me there. you have my list
| Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands doI was referring to the above. Anyway - let's leave it at that, and see what happens eh. Interestingly, I went to look out some info on the band, and came up with this article that supports some of the things you've been saying: 'Rattus Norvegicus doesn’t have a huge audience in America. It’s a record passed over by a lot of rock aficionados, and swarms of gob spitting punk purists haven’t heard a note of its snarl. How did this happen? It’s got all the right ingredients - songs of alienation, angst, attitude and anarchy archetypes. Hell, it’s even oozing with pre-punk psychedelic rock influences like The Doors, with a Manzarek like organ carrying its melodies along in a drunken stupor. The problem may be that (despite its influences) the album, like The Stranglers themselves, was a little too British. It’s an ethnocentric disease that’s paralyzed American music lovers from the ears down for decades. Groups like The Kinks, The Jam and The Stranglers never amassed the amount of attention from U.S. audiences that they rightfully deserved. Shame. They were talented, hungry and damn fine rock stars. The record (which is named after the scientific labeling of a type of Norway rodent) is hard to pin down. It has the edge of an expletive laden punk EP and the long sweeping takes of your standard prog-rock concept album. The opening lyrics on their debut track “Sometimes” cuts in on the heavy organ crutch and grinding Peter Gunn style bass with a lip curled, “Someday I’m gonna smack your face. Somebody’s gonna call your bluff. Somebody’s gonna treat you rough.” The beauty of Rattus Norvegicus can be found here, with its ability to simultaneously affront and appease. The band’s sweet and sour take on the burgeoning punk movement would become a calling card for subsequent albums and would set them apart from the cookie-cutter one act groups forming at the time. The star of the show is easily “Peaches”, a song that drips attitude with a schoolboy’s playful demeanor. The track may have confused some audiences into thinking that, lyrically speaking, The Stranglers were a sexist group of misanthropes who were quick to criticize any and every race, creed and belief structure. In actuality Hugh Cromwell, Jet Black, Jean-Jacques Burnel and crew were amateur satirists commenting on society at a confusing time in England’s history. Had it not been for the run ins with the law and being acquaintances of the notorious Finchley Boys street gang, people might have seen the lyrics for a song like “Ugly” as observant or hilarious. But when you hear the lyrics “I guess I shouldn’t have strangled her to death, but I had to go to work and she laced my coffee with acid” out of context, you can’t be blamed for your assumptions. Rattus Norvegicus doesn’t follow a straight and uncompromising journey into the abyss, a point of view that most punks initially adopted at that time. Instead the record is a cornucopia of surprising solos and swells of melody. “Princess of the Streets” seems completely disjointed from entries like “Goodbye Toulouse”, a song that hints at the future sound of the band and a lot of the brilliance they already had as songwriters. Punk was something that can be nailed to a particular style, a particular time and a certain type of attitude. Well in The Stranglers’ defense, Cromwell has been cited as saying that they never considered themselves punks. Their later albums delving into more pop friendly waters (as well as the production of a few concept albums) should come as no surprise then. Why should they be nailed to the punk rock cross when they never considered themselves its apostles to begin with?'
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 11:33 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Regarding the multi-part harmonies issue ...I was merely referencing your earlier concession that this didn't really characterise the music of the Stranglers. I'm not saying that it's not within your rights to change your mind within this short space of time however.
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I never said that. I said it is not that alone which marks them as prog. but it is one of the main characteristics of their music. you must have misunderstood me there. you have my list
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Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands do
I was referring to the above.
Anyway - let's leave it at that, and see what happens eh.
Interestingly, I went to look out some info on the band, and came up with this article that supports some of the things you've been saying:
'Rattus Norvegicus doesn’t have a huge audience in America. It’s a record passed over by a lot of rock aficionados, and swarms of gob spitting punk purists haven’t heard a note of its snarl. How did this happen? It’s got all the right ingredients - songs of alienation, angst, attitude and anarchy archetypes. Hell, it’s even oozing with pre-punk psychedelic rock influences like The Doors, with a Manzarek like organ carrying its melodies along in a drunken stupor. The problem may be that (despite its influences) the album, like The Stranglers themselves, was a little too British. It’s an ethnocentric disease that’s paralyzed American music lovers from the ears down for decades. Groups like The Kinks, The Jam and The Stranglers never amassed the amount of attention from U.S. audiences that they rightfully deserved. Shame. They were talented, hungry and damn fine rock stars. The record (which is named after the scientific labeling of a type of Norway rodent) is hard to pin down. It has the edge of an expletive laden punk EP and the long sweeping takes of your standard prog-rock concept album. The opening lyrics on their debut track “Sometimes” cuts in on the heavy organ crutch and grinding Peter Gunn style bass with a lip curled, “Someday I’m gonna smack your face. Somebody’s gonna call your bluff. Somebody’s gonna treat you rough.” The beauty of Rattus Norvegicus can be found here, with its ability to simultaneously affront and appease. The band’s sweet and sour take on the burgeoning punk movement would become a calling card for subsequent albums and would set them apart from the cookie-cutter one act groups forming at the time. The star of the show is easily “Peaches”, a song that drips attitude with a schoolboy’s playful demeanor. The track may have confused some audiences into thinking that, lyrically speaking, The Stranglers were a sexist group of misanthropes who were quick to criticize any and every race, creed and belief structure. In actuality Hugh Cromwell, Jet Black, Jean-Jacques Burnel and crew were amateur satirists commenting on society at a confusing time in England’s history. Had it not been for the run ins with the law and being acquaintances of the notorious Finchley Boys street gang, people might have seen the lyrics for a song like “Ugly” as observant or hilarious. But when you hear the lyrics “I guess I shouldn’t have strangled her to death, but I had to go to work and she laced my coffee with acid” out of context, you can’t be blamed for your assumptions. Rattus Norvegicus doesn’t follow a straight and uncompromising journey into the abyss, a point of view that most punks initially adopted at that time. Instead the record is a cornucopia of surprising solos and swells of melody. “Princess of the Streets” seems completely disjointed from entries like “Goodbye Toulouse”, a song that hints at the future sound of the band and a lot of the brilliance they already had as songwriters. Punk was something that can be nailed to a particular style, a particular time and a certain type of attitude. Well in The Stranglers’ defense, Cromwell has been cited as saying that they never considered themselves punks. Their later albums delving into more pop friendly waters (as well as the production of a few concept albums) should come as no surprise then. Why should they be nailed to the punk rock cross when they never considered themselves its apostles to begin with?' |
that refers to vocals only. but they have intricate instrumental harmonies. "voice" is a musical term that does not refer to vocals only. "polyphony" means "many voices" (instrumental or vocal ones). and I especially pointed out their polyphony
Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 11:36
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Takeshi Kovacs
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 11:39 |
Yes my reference was intended to relate to the lack of multi part vocal harmonies, not instrumental harmonies, as you had asked me to identify how they might not be considered progressive, and this was one of the things I raised. Just been reading more about them, and I've heard them described as (a) pop, (b) dance-punk, and the best prog band you've never heard of. Going to give Aural Sculpture a listen.
Edited by Takeshi Kovacs - October 12 2008 at 12:05
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 11:43 |
Takeshi Kovacs wrote:
Yes my reference was intended to relate to the lack of multi part vocal harmonies, not instrumental harmonies
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as I said; very few bands have that. VdGG and especially Hammill solo does. Gentle Giant and sometimes Yes do. but it is very rare that you have polyphony there, even with many different vocals; mostly it is only pseudo-polyphony. very often it is just parallel quints (a technique which is considered a definite no-no in classical music, by the way). if you like complex multiple-vocal compositions there is nothing better than Peter Hammill's opera "The Fall of the House of Usher". Gentle Giant's "Knots" is simple compared to the vocals on that album
Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 11:50
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Takeshi Kovacs
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 13:23 |
BaldJean - could you recommend the best 2 or 3 albums to listen to that you consider have the greatest proggish tendencies?
I just listened to Aural Sculpture, and there was very little there to suggest prog. I got bits of OMD type keyboards, 80s style drum machines, reminded me a bit of Simple Minds in parts & a little of Talking Heads, short poppy compositions. Nothing seemed particularly complex.
Keen to try some of their other stuff to see if that changes my opinion.
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Open the gates of the city wide....
Check out my music taste: http://www.last.fm/user/TakeshiKovacs/
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BaldJean
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 14:32 |
the 80s were a bad time for many bands, not only the Stranglers. "The Raven" and "Black and White" are excellent examples of prog though. but don't expect prog rock a la Genesis there. these ARE pop songs. but hey, most of prog is; anyone who thinks something else is only deluding him- or herself. there is only very little music in prog that I would NOT consider to be pop. the songs of the Stranglers rarely exceed the 5 minute mark. but we have several precedences for that in prog too. take for example the Amon Düül II album "Vive la Trance", which is a full blown prog album, and yet most songs on it are like that too. that album of Amon Düül 2 has an average rating of 3.30, so while it is not exactly a masterpiece it is considered to be pretty good. and no-one doubts it is a prog album. another example are some of the solo albums of Robert Calvert, likey "Hype" or "Test-Tube Conceived"; the latter has an average rating of 3.82. but these "pop" songs of the Stranglers are not "simple" pop songs at all. there is a high level of complexity in them, most notably the polyphony I mentioned many times before. and believe me, you will very rarely find polyphony in a mere pop song. it is a very advanced technique that very few bands we consider as "prog" master; there are a lot of prg songs that many would consider to be more "complex" than those of the Stranglers which actually are NOT from a music theoretical point of view. a few tempo changes don't make a song complex at all. and of course we do have longer compositions of the Stranglers too. but prog definitely IS pop music, like it or not. enough of my rant. but when analyzing music it definitely helps to have some knowledge of musical theory. Certif1ed has an excellent knowledge of it; trust me, he definitely will agree with me
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A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 12 2008 at 14:39 |
BaldJean wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
ANY band that uses polyphony for their songs should be considered prog; it is in my opinion a decisive criterion. |
absolutely. if that is not a clear criterion, then what is?
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Are you sure?
What about The Mamas & the Papas, they surely used polyphonic vocals as in Monday Monday and California Dreamin'....Should we add them?
The Beach Boys used Polyphony from their frst albums.
BTW: The Stranglers is not a pure Punk band, also a New Wave band and New Wave is the second or third stage of Punk, the genre merged with mainstream and even though they had more than 3 chords, they kept being post Punk bands.
But those who say they are not Punk have ever heard "Peasant in the Big sh*tty" or "School Mam"?
It's funny,
- The Stranglers considered themselves part of the Punk movement,
You were perceived in the press as being punk but not perhaps by your peers
JJ. I thought of myself as part of it at the time because we were inhabiting the same flora and fauna. We were going to the same The few pubs that would let us play were attracting a certain kind of public and the girls that we were shagging were young punkettes. I was definitely after girls with fishnet tights ands stilettos and leather jackets and lots of heavy makeup. Hugh was mixing with postgrad girls round Kensington. I wasn’t so fussy and I identified with that scene. I also got into a lot of fights and looked for trouble. I soon considered the punks a bit wimpy. We were a crossover. More hardcore punks definitely didn’t like us and the kids 17/18 adopted us as their punk band.
I remember Joe Strummer crying on my shoulder when Stranglers supported Patti Smith saying he wanted a band like ours. (Interestingly this recollection is also recounted by Hugh but he has 'his' shoulder as the one being cried on).
The Stranglers were more like American punk than English punk. The others in the band found it a restrictive moniker because we very eclectic in our tastes. f**ks sake I love a lot of classical music and jazz. I’m not going to restrict my influences and write a punk song. People lumped us in with it and we were playing the same venues and a lot of the audience was a crossover. Its not a thing that has kept me awake at night. I would like to think we were more punk plus and then some.
Interview to JJ Burnel |
Now we now more than them about their own music.
- Their own official website considers them leaders of the Punk movement:
So began the ever changing recording career of the Stranglers. The punk scene was a matter of weeks from its own genesis in Britain and indeed, many of the soon-to-be punk stars had become regulars at the Stranglers’ performances, the Stranglers being the clear leaders of an as yet un-named new style of music.
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Now we also believe to know more than their own oficial website.
- Punk 77 also considers them Punk http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/Stranglers.htm , everybody considers them Punk,
- Nobody in the whole net considers them Prog, but we want to add them "because we are so open minded" (Not your case Baldies, I respect your opinion but don't agree).
People should have at least heard all their albums to give an opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 12 2008 at 14:59
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