The Stranglers???

Takeshi Kovacs wrote: From the Prog Archives section: A definition of Progressive Rock Music 1 'Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop' The Stranglers in my opinion did the opposite of this embracing the 3 minute 'pop' tracks such as No More Heroes / Golden Brown. 2 'Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp.....often described as epics....'. Do The Stranglers have any? I realise that these are only two areas in a  much wider definition of the term Prog. Perhaps you might suggest which sub-genre they might fall into, and why, as you will have a much better knowledge of their music than I do. To be honest, if they are included or not, I'm not bothered either way..I just don't think I'll ever associate them with being related to the progressive rock movement. Edit - just noticed you pre-empted some of these issues with your edited post - let me have a read.

read my previous post

Takeshi Kovacs wrote: Is that the single critierion that defines an artist as prog? In other words, is the suggestion that any band using polyphony can be considered prog, and worthy of inclusion here?

indeed, if a band uses polyphony, it can in my opinion be considered as prog. that is by far not the single criterion for a prog band though; most prog bands don't use polyphony; it is a very advanced technique. but a band that uses it definitely is a prog band. anyway, that's by far not the only criterion why the Stranglers belong. on the contrary, please name a criterion why they should NOT belong. and a musical criterion please, not just some definitely untrue statement like "the Stranglers are punk" (nonsense) or "they did not feel as part of the progressive movement" (neither did King Crimson or Van der Graaf Generator). their musical structures are of a very advanced nature, and we should consider them prog for that
but let us cite our own criteria:

• Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings. check, at least on the intricate melodies and harmonies. no 20-minute compositions, but a seminal band like Gentle Giant didn't have them either
  
• Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues. check
• Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".  "Black and White" is a concept album of sorts, though the concept is a loose one
  
• Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. not really, but very few prog bands do
  
• Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums. check
  
• Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart. check. use of polyphony should be named here too
  
• Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra (The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart. no check, but this part is a bit cheesy anyway
  
• An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced. check

conclusion? draw it yourself





Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 10:24

BaldFriede wrote: ANY band that uses polyphony for their songs should be considered prog; it is in my opinion a decisive criterion.

absolutely. if that is not a clear criterion, then what is?

BaldFriede wrote: Vibrationbaby wrote: Why don't we include  Hootie And The Blowfish as well. Can't believe this has gone three pages. I can't believe it either, but for different reasons. For me the Stranglers always were clearly prog. There are other bands which are included in the archives that I would NOT have included, by the way. But I won't go into that.

BaldFriede - which Stranglers albums do you think are most 'progressive'. I must admit to have said 'no' to the suggestion that they are Prog, that being largely based on my early experiences of them. For example, Stranglers means to me: Peaches, No More Heroes, Golden Brown (bought the single). Whilst good songs, none of them would strike me as being progressive in nature.

Not really listened to their later albums, thought I went on to a site that had some clips of their songs, and whilst I noticed a slight similarity to the Doors in their keyboard style on some of the songs I heard, they just seemed like short, slightly dark poppy tracks to me.

I guess people hear different things in different bands. At the moment, I'd say no, but am open to persuasion. For example, early Talk Tak was in no way Prog. If I had never heard their later stuff, I'd have dismissed out of hand the suggestion that they be included here. Maybe that's similar to The Stranglers, and that in the albums I've missed, they have changed direction................. 

Why don't we include  Hootie And The Blowfish as well. Can't believe this has gone three pages.

Jon The Impaler wrote: Well  . Its been a time since I've been on here , but I have to say "no " . The Stranglers are my all time favourite band , and they are still going for anyone that interested - on tour in October , released their 16th studio album a couple of years ago , and have just released ANOTHER greatest hits album (4240 its called ). Supposedly the best and definitive greatest hits one , but thats what they've said about the last 8 greatest hits albums , and to be honest the greatest hits haven't changed much since 1990 - just the addition of "Big Thing Coming " in 2004 I think . Someone mentioned that they didn't sound like typical punk - true - they had keyboards which most punk bands didn't . Apparently Dave Greenfield  was quite unaware of Doors sounds in the early days , he was just similar in style to the Doors keyboard player , hence  the comparrisons . I said  no to the band being included as I don't really think they would be sounding anything like the majority of bands on this forum . The eraly years they weer very raw  and doing things that many of the early punk bands copied , they were around 2 years before punk really started - similar to The Vibrators , they got tagged in with a movement ( punk ) which had similar styles , though The Stranglers were far advanced in musicianship. The Clash started out as a punk band but progressed to other styles - I wouldn't call them prog though .I didn't like the direction The Clash took , but thats just personal taste .

there are a lot of very raw bands in the archives. just listen to High Tide - you can hardly get any rawer than that. it is also not important at all to sound like the majority of the bands in here. where the heck do for example bands like VdGG, Magma or Gong sound like the majority of bands ? the Stranglers perfectly fit the bill to be added from an analytical point of view. that they are being rejected by most is only due to their "punk" image. which is one of the reasons I opened my thread about preconceived notions. anyone who listens to the Stranglers without those preconceived notions can only come to one conclusion: that they fully belong into the archives


Edited by BaldJean - October 12 2008 at 04:02

can't understand how or where anyone hears "punk" in the music of the Stranglers. this is not 3-chords music at all

I hear elements of of Prog, Punk, and New Wave. They take from the past and yet manage to predict the future!

The way they put all the sounds and styles together does sound like interesting modern prog at times, hence, prog related terminology being utilized as the descriptor.

As mentioned by someone earlier I do not believe the bonus tracks in the expanded version should have anything to with this debate but instead stick to the original albums.

Someone had mentioned the "Police" which was very inappropriate since they do not have a shred of the creativity of the Stranglers or the prog for that matter and should never find a home here.

Dick Heath wrote: And I guaranteed if you asked the band for their opinion, they would wet themselves laughing. When the Stranglers  formed they were the antithesis of prog. Why not Police who cames out of the UK punk period- at least you has two ex-prog musicians and a bassist/vocalist who played jazzrock and fan of Jack Bruce.

BaldFriede wrote: Dick Heath wrote: And I guaranteed if you asked the band for their opinion, they would wet themselves laughing. When the Stranglers  formed they were the antithesis of prog. Why not Police who cames out of the UK punk period- at least you has two ex-prog musicians and a bassist/vocalist who played jazzrock and fan of Jack Bruce. So what? VdGG laughed about the prog sticker too. It is not the intention with which you play that counts, it is the resulting music. The Police, on the other hand, never made any music that could be recognized as prog, although all three members played with artists that are prog. Copeland played with Curved Air, Summers with Fripp, and Sting with Eberhard Schoener (who is long overdue to be added to the archives). But the resulting music is not prog at all. But that's not the case with the Stranglers. I concur with Jean who challenged you to make a blind test and play, for example,  "Black and White" to someone who does not know the Stranglers without telling him or her what it is.

I'm not sure that test would work if you played them Shut Up or TITS (from the expanded version)!