The Stranglers???

For Stranglers addition, depends on the people in charge to evaluate it. If they want to be very flexible, like they are with some additions (citing the site policies), Stranglers may even appear on full-blown prog genres, like Crossover. If they want to be strict, like they are with some additions (citing the site policies), Stranglers will never be added to the site, not even in Prog Related. 

akin wrote: For Stranglers addition, depends on the people in charge to evaluate it. If they want to be very flexible, like they are with some additions (citing the site policies), Stranglers may even appear on full-blown prog genres, like Crossover. If they want to be strict, like they are with some additions (citing the site policies), Stranglers will never be added to the site, not even in Prog Related.

I disagree, for the reasons already mentioned. If true polyphony is NOT a sign of prog then nothing is!

Although not overly familiar with the band what I've heard never struck me as progressive. Experimental perhaps, complex at times, but not progressive.

But those who know the band better than me can probably (or not?) point out stuff like:

- Multilayered melody lines, with either disharmonic or harmonic tendencies to an extent that separates them from mainstream rock, and used as a common element in their music.
- Influences from jazz, classical or folk.
- Compositional complexities; not following a structure or approach commonly found in mainstream rock bands .
- Or (although I doubt this applies in this case) a highly minimalistic approach to music; combined with psychedelic or spacey tendencies.

I will explain instead of Friede. true polyphony (in contrast to pseudo-polyphony) in music is a texture made of two or more INDEPENDENT melodic voices. the stress is on "independent"; if those two different melodic lines both just follow the chord progression they are NOT independent. in that case you speak of pseudo-polyphony.
examples for true polyphony can be heard in several songs of Gentle Giant like "Knots" or "On Reflection" for example, "Walking Down Their Outlook" by High Tide or the beginning of "Meurglys III - the Songtwriter's Guild" by Van der Graaf Generator. a Strangler's song with true polyphony is "Toiler on the Sea", for example


Edited by BaldJean - October 03 2008 at 17:11

Windhawk wrote: Although not overly familiar with the band what I've heard never struck me as progressive. Experimental perhaps, complex at times, but not progressive. But those who know the band better than me can probably (or not?) point out stuff like: - Multilayered melody lines, with either disharmonic or harmonic tendencies to an extent that separates them from mainstream rock, and used as a common element in their music.   Pretty much exists in everything the Stranglers wrote, to a lesser or greater degree.  - Influences from jazz, classical or folk.   Off hand, there's the 13/4 harpsichord part in "Golden Brown" (so there are odd time signatures too ), but every album has experimentations that hint at those sort of areas, or that you could draw the same kind of simple parallel that a huge number of Prog bands enjoy without being questioned. - Compositional complexities; not following a structure or approach commonly found in mainstream rock bands .   This one's easy - almost any of their albums will give you this, but try "Aural Sculpture" - the name is a giveaway as to their approach. - Or (although I doubt this applies in this case) a highly minimalistic approach to music; combined with psychedelic or spacey tendencies.   There is a strong psychedelic tendency - think of the Doors, then listen to their early material - "No More Heroes" is a good example. Listen to the keyboard lead and the independent bass line, and the ascending musical interjections - the piece is not as simple as the chorus would have you believe, and lyrically, we're at an intellectual level comparable with surprising amount of Prog.

BaldJean wrote: I will explain instead of Friede. true polyphony (in contrast to pseudo-polyphony) in music is a texture made of two ore more INDEPENDENT melodic voices. the stress is on "independent"; if those two different melodic lines both just follow the chord progression they are NOT independent. in that case you speak of pseudo-polyphony. examples for true polyphony can be heard in several songs of Gentle Giant like "Knots" or "On Reflection" for example, "Walking Down Their Outlook" by High Tide or the beginning of "Meurglys III - the Songtwriter's Guild" by Van der Graaf Generator. a Strangler's song with true polyphony is "Toiler on the Sea", for example

chopper wrote: BaldJean wrote: I will explain instead of Friede. true polyphony (in contrast to pseudo-polyphony) in music is a texture made of two ore more INDEPENDENT melodic voices. the stress is on "independent"; if those two different melodic lines both just follow the chord progression they are NOT independent. in that case you speak of pseudo-polyphony. examples for true polyphony can be heard in several songs of Gentle Giant like "Knots" or "On Reflection" for example, "Walking Down Their Outlook" by High Tide or the beginning of "Meurglys III - the Songtwriter's Guild" by Van der Graaf Generator. a Strangler's song with true polyphony is "Toiler on the Sea", for example I get the example of Knots but I dont know the other songs. Isn't this just multi-part vocals which I don't think is enough to classify it as "prog"? I don't hear anything like that in "Toiler on the Sea".

it don't have to be vocals, any instrument will do. and it is totally obvious in "Toiler on the Sea" (at least to me). polyphony is so very highly advanced that only very few prog bands ever used it. Zappa of course, but he even used polytonality. the important thing is that the parts have to be INDEPENDENT. you will very rarely find that in prog; it is a very advanced composing technique

Certif1ed wrote: Windhawk wrote: Although not overly familiar with the band what I've heard never struck me as progressive. Experimental perhaps, complex at times, but not progressive. But those who know the band better than me can probably (or not?) point out stuff like: - Multilayered melody lines, with either disharmonic or harmonic tendencies to an extent that separates them from mainstream rock, and used as a common element in their music.   Pretty much exists in everything the Stranglers wrote, to a lesser or greater degree.  - Influences from jazz, classical or folk.   Off hand, there's the 13/4 harpsichord part in "Golden Brown" (so there are odd time signatures too ), but every album has experimentations that hint at those sort of areas, or that you could draw the same kind of simple parallel that a huge number of Prog bands enjoy without being questioned. - Compositional complexities; not following a structure or approach commonly found in mainstream rock bands .   This one's easy - almost any of their albums will give you this, but try "Aural Sculpture" - the name is a giveaway as to their approach. - Or (although I doubt this applies in this case) a highly minimalistic approach to music; combined with psychedelic or spacey tendencies.   There is a strong psychedelic tendency - think of the Doors, then listen to their early material - "No More Heroes" is a good example. Listen to the keyboard lead and the independent bass line, and the ascending musical interjections - the piece is not as simple as the chorus would have you believe, and lyrically, we're at an intellectual level comparable with surprising amount of Prog.   All of this really proves that you can't just Prog by elements alone.   My gut feel has always been that the Stranglers are very closely related to Prog, if not the full-blown stuff in the sense of Classic Prog. But Classic Prog seems to be seen as just a yardstick these days - the Stranglers are certainly leagues ahead of many Modern Prog bands, such as Porcupine Tree, for example, in terms of Prog elements - yet few seem to dispute PT's credentials, which I've always found a bit mystifying.

Dean wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Windhawk wrote: Although not overly familiar with the band what I've heard never struck me as progressive. Experimental perhaps, complex at times, but not progressive. But those who know the band better than me can probably (or not?) point out stuff like: - Multilayered melody lines, with either disharmonic or harmonic tendencies to an extent that separates them from mainstream rock, and used as a common element in their music.   Pretty much exists in everything the Stranglers wrote, to a lesser or greater degree.  - Influences from jazz, classical or folk.   Off hand, there's the 13/4 harpsichord part in "Golden Brown" (so there are odd time signatures too ), but every album has experimentations that hint at those sort of areas, or that you could draw the same kind of simple parallel that a huge number of Prog bands enjoy without being questioned. - Compositional complexities; not following a structure or approach commonly found in mainstream rock bands .   This one's easy - almost any of their albums will give you this, but try "Aural Sculpture" - the name is a giveaway as to their approach. - Or (although I doubt this applies in this case) a highly minimalistic approach to music; combined with psychedelic or spacey tendencies.   There is a strong psychedelic tendency - think of the Doors, then listen to their early material - "No More Heroes" is a good example. Listen to the keyboard lead and the independent bass line, and the ascending musical interjections - the piece is not as simple as the chorus would have you believe, and lyrically, we're at an intellectual level comparable with surprising amount of Prog.   All of this really proves that you can't just Prog by elements alone.   My gut feel has always been that the Stranglers are very closely related to Prog, if not the full-blown stuff in the sense of Classic Prog. But Classic Prog seems to be seen as just a yardstick these days - the Stranglers are certainly leagues ahead of many Modern Prog bands, such as Porcupine Tree, for example, in terms of Prog elements - yet few seem to dispute PT's credentials, which I've always found a bit mystifying. The Stranglers were rejected for Prog Related earlier in the year and there isn't another sub in which they could be seriously placed. Although I voted in favour of addition, I can accept and understand the reasons for exclusion.   Even though the Prog Related definition identifies three possible reasons for including a band, we have to consider more than just the compositional techniques and musical experimentation (ie "bravery"), for the Stranglers do not appear to be influenced by, or influenced on, Prog Rock per-sey "...the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community."    ...which may (or may not) be mere weasel-words, but it has value with regard to the nature of this site and its perception from the outside looking in. This discussion-thread illustrates this point perfectly.   The Stranglers may have more Prog elements than PT, but their effect on the Prog community and on other Prog bands that came after them is minimal by comparison - not that that is a reason for exclusion in itself, but highlights the drastic difference between the two bands from a Prog (fan) perspective - PT forged their early career with one foot firmly planted in Prog territory, (and then extrapolated into other areas), whereas The Stranglers purposely avoided it.   The Stranglers appear to be more related to Proto Prog rather than Classic Prog, (with Classical Music input from Greenfield & Burnel, Blues from Cornwell and Jazz from Black), which for a band formed in 1974 that hit their creative peak in the early 80s is unusual, to me this suggests they went off on a tangent to Progressive Rock down some musical cul-de-sac that no other band followed.

I completely disagree, Dean. the sole reason the Stranglers are not generally seen as prog is that when they came into existence their record company branded them "punk" for business reasons, because prog was out at that time. but anyone who keeps his mind free of prejudices and listens to the music instead can come to no other conclusion than that the Stranglers are obviously prog. make a blind test with people who don't know them and play "Black and White" to them; 10 will get you 1 that they will identify the music as "prog". and that is the reason why I think they definitely belong. it is the music that counts, not any projected image!


Edited by BaldJean - October 03 2008 at 10:30

BaldJean wrote: Dean wrote: The Stranglers were rejected for Prog Related earlier in the year and there isn't another sub in which they could be seriously placed. Although I voted in favour of addition, I can accept and understand the reasons for exclusion.   Even though the Prog Related definition identifies three possible reasons for including a band, we have to consider more than just the compositional techniques and musical experimentation (ie "bravery"), for the Stranglers do not appear to be influenced by, or influenced on, Prog Rock per-sey "...the inclusion of a band is exceptional and only after verifying that it’s a contribution for the better understanding of Prog among the members and visitors instead of a source of confusion for the community."    ...which may (or may not) be mere weasel-words, but it has value with regard to the nature of this site and its perception from the outside looking in. This discussion-thread illustrates this point perfectly.   The Stranglers may have more Prog elements than PT, but their effect on the Prog community and on other Prog bands that came after them is minimal by comparison - not that that is a reason for exclusion in itself, but highlights the drastic difference between the two bands from a Prog (fan) perspective - PT forged their early career with one foot firmly planted in Prog territory, (and then extrapolated into other areas), whereas The Stranglers purposely avoided it.   The Stranglers appear to be more related to Proto Prog rather than Classic Prog, (with Classical Music input from Greenfield & Burnel, Blues from Cornwell and Jazz from Black), which for a band formed in 1974 that hit their creative peak in the early 80s is unusual, to me this suggests they went off on a tangent to Progressive Rock down some musical cul-de-sac that no other band followed.   I completely disagree, Dean. the sole reason the Stranglers are not generally seen as prog is that when they came into existence their record company branded them "punk" for business reasons, because prog was out at that time. but anyone who keeps his mind free of prejudices and listens to the music instead can come to no other conclusion that the Stranglers are obviously prog. make a blind test with people who don't know them and play "Black and White" to them; 10 will get you 1 that they will identify the music as "prog". and that is the reason why I think they definitely belong. it is the music that counts, not any projected image!