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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: September 27 2008 at 07:05 |
Let's not crap around, it's very simple:
1) You as a customer give me (I'm the bank) a dollar for safekeeping.
2) I gamble and loose it.
3) I get another dollar from you via the tax you pay.
4) I use that dollar to pay you back, and we're all square.
Gimme a break! All that bullsh*t talk is not going to camouflage what's going on, luckily, the people seem to be upset enough to see what's going on, for once.
Edited by npjnpj - September 27 2008 at 07:05
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: September 26 2008 at 23:01 |
As quoted from the CBC's (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) Washington correspondant Henry Champ sept 26 column (URL - http://www.cbc.ca/news/reportsfromabroad/champblog/2008/09/measuring_mccain_the_distracti.html) "Let's look at the timeline that led McCain to Washington.
It starts Wednesday at 8 a.m., when Republican Sen. Tom Coburn of
Oklahoma calls Barack Obama and suggests that Obama and McCain put out
a joint statement supporting the congressional effort since so many of
the positions the two candidates have on this issue are the same.
Coburn and Obama have worked together before. Coburn says this could be helpful. Obama agrees.
He phones McCain with the idea. McCain says: Not a bad idea, let me get back to you.
In the meantime, McCain phones the White House. He suggests that
Bush call a summit of congressional leaders, as well as Obama and
McCain, to add support to the legislative effort. Oh, and allow me, Mr.
President, to make the suggestion public. It could help my image, one
presumes he suggests. Bush agrees.
McCain then calls Obama, six hours after Obama's morning call and agrees to a joint statement.
Within minutes, McCain has called a press conference, suspended his
campaign, tried to delay the debate, announced a White House summit. In
Florida, Obama is floored.
Senior Democrats are furious as well. Banking committee chairman
Chris Dodd calls this effort an "unwarranted three-hour distraction."
Bailout plan will succeed
Thursday, McCain arrives in Washington but never joins the
deliberations. Senate majority leader Harry Reid asks for, but never
receives, a statement on where McCain wants to go on the issues. Reid
later says: "I have asked John McCain where he stands and the only
stand I've seen is when McCain is in front of a microphone."
Reporters ask the principals how often over the last days McCain
been in contact with them. "Never" and "seldom" are the answers.
McCain does meet with dissident House Republicans, but neither
supports or rejects their position. What those Republicans do figure
out, though, is that cover has arrived.
They go to the White House and say they will vote no on any package. This package is dead, they tell the media.
Earlier, we mentioned sausage-making. There is no chance this
bailout package will be ditched. But its final form is yet to be
determined.
Now it's Friday afternoon. Guess what? The debate is back on. Press conferences are indicating that progress is being made.
Recently, polls have steadily showed Obama inching ahead and the
issue propelling him is the economy. That fact may have unsettled
McCain, caused him to give in to his known risk-taking side. He did get
a photo at the White House.
He did make a difference in the process.
It was a negative one."
As far as giving up, the point was to say " let's just hand over the money again and again until they learn their lesson; 'cause we sure don't seem to learn ours!" Add to this, that Bush seems insistent that taking any time to think things out will cause more damage than good. IF my government is going to throw $700 billion (estimates are that it will eventually come in at a trillion) at a problem not of its' making, then they better take the time and do it right. Haste makes waste, and IV, you said that governments have a tendency to do so.
And Bush saying that he doesn't believe that regulations should be to strict so as not to impede the free market ... well, as the Republican Conservatives are telling him - free markets mean winners and losers. The losers shouldn't be entitled to bailouts because of greed and bad planning.
If the free market needs government bailouts and subsidies, then the government is well withing its' rights to impose regulations to hopefully avoid the same thing happening again. Self regulation didn't work in the S & L scandal, it didn't do a damn thing to stop the Long Term Mgmt hedge fund from blowing up, and the financial and investment industry proved once more this time that they have no clue how to so.
Let's try something new.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 26 2008 at 16:34 |
debrewguy wrote:
you're right IV, let's give it up, and hand it over as meekly and unquestioning as the S & L bucket brigade did.
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Now your talking man. You sound fatalistic and you're right. You can question the bailout all you want, but the end result will be just the same. Bear in mind that our government does not strive to please the common folks. Its main goal here is to support a vibrant economy, i.e. the big business. Presumably everyone could benefit from it then. Whether it's right or wrong is open to debate, but we have very little say in it.
debrewguy wrote:
Wonder why Republicans conservatives aren't just writing the blank cheque that Bush has asked ? |
It seems they played it McCain's way. Let's see how the final deal is structured. If they make it a loan to the banks requiring insurance and interest payments, the public will be ecstatic, and if they advertise it in a nice way to make McCain the bailout hero, it may tip the scales. Very clever. The Dems rushed with their handouts to help with avoiding foreclosures and didn't see the forestr behind the trees
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: September 26 2008 at 12:39 |
Wonder why Republicans conservatives aren't just writing the blank cheque that Bush has asked ? Is it that the thought of regulations being required has thrown them off balance ? Anyway, Bush will argue that you can't put too many restrictions so as not to impede the free market, while intruding in the free market to save those who were its' most prominent boosters. you're right IV, let's give it up, and hand it over as meekly and unquestioning as the S & L bucket brigade did.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 26 2008 at 08:18 |
IVNORD wrote:
debrewguy wrote:
The Fed was selling ABCPs ? That is how the banks were able to "justify" financing the mortgages. They were bundled and sold as securities, investments, to other financial institutions around the world. |
Yea, they bundled the mortgages and sold them as MBS's, but where did the money come from? In a "proper" economy it should come from savings. |
BTW the MBS have been in circulation ever since Fannie Mae was created. It worked for as long as it was properly done
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 26 2008 at 08:11 |
debrewguy wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
It is necessary, unless you libertarian people want another Great Depression.
npjnpj wrote:
I'm not really a great believer in conspiracies (apart from 9/11, say) | Did I just read that? Please tell me I didn't just read that correctly.
rushfan4 wrote:
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household. Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000. I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000. | But what good is $10,000 if you have nothing to spend it on? I don't think you people understand the magnitude of all our banks collapsing when you so cavalierly say NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
But that doesn't mean I think they're doing a good job, that quote from the spokesperson is unbelievable. |
EXACTLY
The banks are responsible by lending to people who should not have received loans and the people who borrowed against an inflated wealth in their house are responsible as well. People who signed for loans that they had no business borrowing are also just as responsible.
| Now let's do that in reverse.
From what I hear, a couple of years ago to get a mortgage one had just to appear at the bank's door. No credit check, no income check, no downpayment. It's like you're walking down the street and someone gives you a nice chunk of money. Would you refuse?
The banks were in a similar situation. The Fed flooded them with funds. If they just kept the money in their vaults, what good would it do? Besides, nobody asked them what they were doing with it and how they checked the prospective applicants.
So who's responsible? Here comes the Federal Reserve Bank. |
The Fed was selling ABCPs ? That is how the banks were able to "justify" financing the mortgages. They were bundled and sold as securities, investments, to other financial institutions around the world. |
Yea, they bundled the mortgages and sold them as MBS's, but where did the money come from? In a "proper" economy it should come from savings. In our case the capital was provided by the Fed in the form of extra liquidity supposedly to stimulate the economy. Just look at the money supply charts for the past 40-50 years.
debrewguy wrote:
I really wish I knew why you think the Fed is a conspiratorial entity ????????? |
Why cry conspiracy? It's done in an absolutely legal way as the Fed has this immense power to "stabilize the fanancial system." It's called the Fed economic and financial policy. Its main idea is to avoid recessions at any cost. The staggering inflation is a direct result of it although the public is fed all this bullsh*t about a 2% annual inflation rate.
debrewguy wrote:
Soooooooooooooooooo, if that bailout didn't do much, why not just give the money to the American people, and let them spend as they see fit. Whether it's investing, buying or saving or paying down debt. Let's face it, the money will go through the system , eh.
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What a nice 2-week feast all of us would have then, ah! And in a few more weeks another handout. "Bread and circuses" - panem et circenses. Nice
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 19:23 |
IVNORD wrote:
Garion81 wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
It is necessary, unless you libertarian people want another Great Depression.
npjnpj wrote:
I'm not really a great believer in conspiracies (apart from 9/11, say) | Did I just read that? Please tell me I didn't just read that correctly.
rushfan4 wrote:
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household. Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000. I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000. | But what good is $10,000 if you have nothing to spend it on? I don't think you people understand the magnitude of all our banks collapsing when you so cavalierly say NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
But that doesn't mean I think they're doing a good job, that quote from the spokesperson is unbelievable. |
EXACTLY
The banks are responsible by lending to people who should not have received loans and the people who borrowed against an inflated wealth in their house are responsible as well. People who signed for loans that they had no business borrowing are also just as responsible.
| Now let's do that in reverse.
From what I hear, a couple of years ago to get a mortgage one had just to appear at the bank's door. No credit check, no income check, no downpayment. It's like you're walking down the street and someone gives you a nice chunk of money. Would you refuse?
The banks were in a similar situation. The Fed flooded them with funds. If they just kept the money in their vaults, what good would it do? Besides, nobody asked them what they were doing with it and how they checked the prospective applicants.
So who's responsible? Here comes the Federal Reserve Bank. |
The Fed was selling ABCPs ? That is how the banks were able to "justify" financing the mortgages. They were bundled and sold as securities, investments, to other financial institutions around the world. I really wish I knew why you think the Fed is a conspiratorial entity ????????? The reality from the S & L debacle is that those who profited kept their money, and the American Taxpayer paid. And that experience was so enlightening and effective at preventing other such events. Soooooooooooooooooo, if that bailout didn't do much, why not just give the money to the American people, and let them spend as they see fit. Whether it's investing, buying or saving or paying down debt. Let's face it, the money will go through the system , eh.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 18:02 |
Garion81 wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
It is necessary, unless you libertarian people want another Great Depression.
npjnpj wrote:
I'm not really a great believer in conspiracies (apart from 9/11, say) | Did I just read that? Please tell me I didn't just read that correctly.
rushfan4 wrote:
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household. Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000. I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000. | But what good is $10,000 if you have nothing to spend it on? I don't think you people understand the magnitude of all our banks collapsing when you so cavalierly say NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
But that doesn't mean I think they're doing a good job, that quote from the spokesperson is unbelievable. |
EXACTLY
The banks are responsible by lending to people who should not have received loans and the people who borrowed against an inflated wealth in their house are responsible as well. People who signed for loans that they had no business borrowing are also just as responsible.
|
Now let's do that in reverse.
From what I hear, a couple of years ago to get a mortgage one had just to appear at the bank's door. No credit check, no income check, no downpayment. It's like you're walking down the street and someone gives you a nice chunk of money. Would you refuse?
The banks were in a similar situation. The Fed flooded them with funds. If they just kept the money in their vaults, what good would it do? Besides, nobody asked them what they were doing with it and how they checked the prospective applicants.
So who's responsible? Here comes the Federal Reserve Bank.
Edited by IVNORD - September 25 2008 at 18:06
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 17:35 |
BaldFriede wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.
No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.
And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending. I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post. I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.
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So what? These "experts" know which side their toast is buttered on. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing", as a German proverb says. No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake. The means of production are still there; they only have to be given to someone else. They are the real wealth, not stocks and money.
| A big part of our economy is service economy. And by "service" I don't mean coffee shops. It's a financial service economy if you please. The stock market alone represents 30% of the economy. THe manufacturins is shrinking. The means of production are constantly being given to someone else. Someone else overseas. Can you imagine what will happen if half of the economy implodes? |
The stock market is a pseudo-economy in the first place. The original idea of stocks was to give those who offered stocks a financial basis for operations. But today the stock market has lost connection with that idea completely; stocks have become a value for themselves. No matter how important servicing is, the most important thing is still the production of goods. You can't live on services at all. And the means of production are there unless a natural catastrophe destroys them. The means of servicing, in essence manpower, are also there; they will not disappear just because a few firms go bankrupt. There will, however, have to be a reassessment of values, which is long overdue in the first place anyway.
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Financial industry is an integral part of any modern economy. I'm not going to discuss the merits and original purpose of stock markets as it's irrelevant. Collapse of major financial institutions may cause so much pain that no reassessment of values can justify it.
As for service vs manufacturing/ agriculture/ science, the means of production became so technologically advanced that modern production of goods requires very few workers to sustain high levels of output to provide for the entire population. THe remaining work force, freed from production, is employed in services. On top of that, using your beloved Marxist terminology, the division of labor in the global economy is not what it used to be when Marx wrote about it. Today it spans the globe. Labor intensive industries are transferred to low labor cost markets. Thus a service economy can exist
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 16:47 |
The credit crunch came about because banks loaned money to people who couldn’t pay it back. That’s right, the upstanding guardians of our finances, the people we entrust with our savings and pensions, the people into whose system most of our paychecks are fed directly every month, effectively walked into a bookmaker’s with all our money and lost it betting on a 3 legged donkey. Then governments use taxpayer’s money – our money – to bail them out. There was really no need to throw that money away in the first place. The banks were profitable and operating in a time of remarkable prosperity and security, so the only real motive for behaving so irresponsibly was the temptation of a fast profit. Or, to put it another way, uncontrolled greed.
And what of the irresponsible borrowers? Vast hordes of the financially disadvantaged did not storm the City brandishing pitchforks and flaming torches, demanding unlimited credit. No, highly paid experts dreamed up a range of financial products and services aimed specifically at that sector of the market, and then spent huge amounts money aggressively targeting them. People who previously could never have got near a mortgage were actively encouraged to borrow way above their ability to pay back if there was even a minor financial hiccup solely so they could get a toe onto the bottom rung of the property ladder. Then the whole house of cards collapsed. ‘You can’t interfere with the market’ suddenly gave way to ‘Bail us out! Now!’.
Just as a bad workman blames his tools, so does a bad business blame its customers.
The banking system was totally complicit in all of this, and then either didn't see the crisis forming or ignored it in the hope that it would go away, and the same is true of the first MBA qualified president and a government who proclaimed 'It's the economy, stupid!'
Of course something needs to be done, but there should be consequences. First Enron and now this - to say nothing of numerous other crises - surely prove that unfettered free market capitalism is as ludicrous and redundant a concept as Soviet socialism.
(not originally written for PA)
Edited by Syzygy - September 25 2008 at 16:48
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 15:09 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
It is necessary, unless you libertarian people want another Great Depression.
npjnpj wrote:
I'm not really a great believer in conspiracies (apart from 9/11, say) | Did I just read that? Please tell me I didn't just read that correctly.
rushfan4 wrote:
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household. Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000. I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000. | But what good is $10,000 if you have nothing to spend it on? I don't think you people understand the magnitude of all our banks collapsing when you so cavalierly say NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
But that doesn't mean I think they're doing a good job, that quote from the spokesperson is unbelievable. |
EXACTLY
The banks are responsible by lending to people who should not have received loans and the people who borrowed against an inflated wealth in their house are responsible as well. People who signed for loans that they had no business borrowing are also just as responsible. This isn't just a bunch of big bankers this about millions of people losing their houses and jobs.
Millions of people who took no part in this are going to suffer. Then to extend it a little further the banks doesn't have the money to lend to business who borrow all the time to keep their cash flow goings for such trivial things as your next paycheck. The bailout would remove the bad loans to allow the banks to continue to keep lending. It is that serious. We are facing a far flung recession that we may not recover from for several decades. This would plunge the world into it as well.
Please at least research what this about before posting about it.
Edited by Garion81 - September 25 2008 at 15:10
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 15:07 |
crimhead wrote:
laplace wrote:
pick a hundred of the most visible complicit people and have them burned at the stake. between this and the farcical election run-up, the onlooker concludes that the US way of living is insane and unsustainable and its morals shallow |
Some people are already predicting that this election won't be decided til January. What fun times again if that happens.
Burning at the streak is too good for them. Make them live and work in the inner cities away from their palaces and see how they like living like the vast majority does.
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Last I heard, the vast majority of people do not live in inner cities...
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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crimhead
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 14:57 |
laplace wrote:
pick a hundred of the most visible complicit people and have them burned at the stake. between this and the farcical election run-up, the onlooker concludes that the US way of living is insane and unsustainable and its morals shallow |
Some people are already predicting that this election won't be decided til January. What fun times again if that happens. Burning at the streak is too good for them. Make them live and work in the inner cities away from their palaces and see how they like living like the vast majority does.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 14:43 |
BaldFriede wrote:
No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake.
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I stopped reading here because you clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 14:40 |
BaldFriede wrote:
No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake.
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How do you think the Great Depression happened in this country?
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 11:07 |
IVNORD wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.
No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.
And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending. I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post. I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.
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So what? These "experts" know which side their toast is buttered on. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing", as a German proverb says. No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake. The means of production are still there; they only have to be given to someone else. They are the real wealth, not stocks and money.
| A big part of our economy is service economy. And by "service" I don't mean coffee shops. It's a financial service economy if you please. The stock market alone represents 30% of the economy. THe manufacturins is shrinking. The means of production are constantly being given to someone else. Someone else overseas. Can you imagine what will happen if half of the economy implodes? |
The stock market is a pseudo-economy in the first place. The original idea of stocks was to give those who offered stocks a financial basis for operations. But today the stock market has lost connection with that idea completely; stocks have become a value for themselves. No matter how important servicing is, the most important thing is still the production of goods. You can't live on services at all. And the means of production are there unless a natural catastrophe destroys them. The means of servicing, in essence manpower, are also there; they will not disappear just because a few firms go bankrupt. There will, however, have to be a reassessment of values, which is long overdue in the first place anyway.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 09:56 |
We should have learned the lesson in 1630:
But greed dominates and periodically crisis like that have occured and will continue to....
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 09:15 |
BaldFriede wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.
No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.
And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending. I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post. I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.
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So what? These "experts" know which side their toast is buttered on. "Whose bread I eat, whose song I sing", as a German proverb says. No, there will be no real harm done if these banks collapse, even if a lot of firms collapse in their wake. The means of production are still there; they only have to be given to someone else. They are the real wealth, not stocks and money.
|
A big part of our economy is service economy. And by "service" I don't mean coffee shops. It's a financial service economy if you please. The stock market alone represents 30% of the economy. THe manufacturins is shrinking. The means of production are constantly being given to someone else. Someone else overseas. Can you imagine what will happen if half of the economy implodes?
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 09:08 |
The Doctor wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
It is necessary, unless you libertarian people want another Great Depression.
npjnpj wrote:
I'm not really a great believer in conspiracies (apart from 9/11, say) | Did I just read that? Please tell me I didn't just read that correctly.
rushfan4 wrote:
They also said that the bailout amounts to $10,000 per household. Personally, instead of giving $700 billion to Wall Street I would prefer that they write me a check for $10,000. I suspect I could do some pretty good damage with $10,000. | But what good is $10,000 if you have nothing to spend it on? I don't think you people understand the magnitude of all our banks collapsing when you so cavalierly say NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
But that doesn't mean I think they're doing a good job, that quote from the spokesperson is unbelievable. |
NO MORE MONEY FOR RICH PEOPLE!
Seriously, I think the first thing the government should do is seize all of the assets of the directors and managers of the banks and use that money as part of the bailout. No, it probably won't amount to $700 billion or enough to save the banks, but maybe the people who run banks in the future will be a bit more responsible with the way they run them, if they know they will be held personally liable for failure. Why should everyone else be responsible for bailing out the banks and not those who had a direct hand in the banks' failures. |
Personal liability won't work here. If a good faith effort can be shown, the risk-taking is legitimate. Wall Street must be heavily regulated as opposed to totally deregulated. And the regulation must begin with the Fed. The Fed Reserve is their partner.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: September 25 2008 at 08:59 |
debrewguy wrote:
NaturalScience wrote:
The bail out funds come from the American public, or rather that we borrow the money and need to pay it back.
DB asks - if it comes from them, why shouldn't they get it back right away ?
No one is happy about the proposed plan, but almost every economist agrees that failure to act and shore up the financial/credit system will hurt so much more - the most pain going to the "little guy" if businesses start failing.
DB - many economists work for the financial industry. self-interest, anybody. Plus, the little guy is going to foot the bill, not the financial industry. Given the track history, wouldn't you feel more comfortable giving the money to anyone else BUT the financial industry. Plus, if you give to the general public , their borrowing/credit needs will decline, won't it ? Think of it, poor people paying off credit cards. Lower Middle Class renovating aging homes. Middle class folks paying down debts. All classes likely spending the money given. If the U.S. government believed that $200 per middle class tax-payer was going to prevent the economy going into a recession, then $10000 should really super-charge things.
And in the future, you don't need to be so condescending. I was making a good faith effort for debrewguy to clarify his post. I assure you I'm not as stupid as you think I am.
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DB - the point is that if you're big enough, you get bailed out time & again. Yet, there was no emergency when the actual home buyers, borrowers, were defaulting on mortgages that no financial expert can defend as being "credit-worthy. Where was the bail-out plan for them ? Oh, they were individuals. Not corporations. And as this situation seems to happen every 10-20 years (S & L, Long Term Hedge Fund et al), is it possible that bail-outs don't work. Could it be that the government does better by applying socialist policies towards the citizenship rather than the miilionaires ? Bush had Congress tighten bankruptcy laws at the Credit Card companies behest, because it was felt that it was too easy for people to get away with not paying their debts. Where is that logic now ? And finally - the cliche investment concept - take on higher risk in return for the possibility of a higher gain. If there is no real risk, why the higher return > And if there was really no profit, why wouldn't the resulting dividends, bonuses and other subsequent rewards be taken back. If it is said to be a very complex undertaking, well, hey, here's $700 billion they're ready to spend covering up the mistakes.
It's time to say enough. The top 5% income brackets do not need financial subsidies. Indeed, you could even argue that the top third aren't really needy when it comes to money. So why do they get the biggest breaks ? Universal Health Care is too expensive. Care to calculate how many years of basic universal health care $700 billion might cover ? Would you believe that this is a better investment in America, than saving Bankers' skin? Wouldn't you know that this could actually contribute more to productivity and economic superiority than corporate welfare schemes that protect MBA Ponzi artists from their themselves ? Bu, no, that socialism. Giving to the poor, to those who aren't in the higher income brackets is bad for business. It is time to say enough. The same old same old didn't work before, and it won't work any better now. So why have the american taxpayer repeatedly keep footing the bill for business' greed ?
WHY ??????
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You throw everything into one barrel...
Bailout. It will be worse without it if people start losing jobs in a chain reaction from WS bankers down to waiters and security guards.
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