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russellk 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 28 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 782 |
 Posted: August 02 2008 at 05:15 |
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Yorkie X makes a point?
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micky
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 02 2008 at 05:38 |
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it went right over my head  |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 02 2008 at 08:10 |
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Austrailia produced one of my favourite punk bands at the time - The Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saints_(band)
 I've said this before: the only thing Punk killed was Punk.
In the UK Punk only lasted 6 months before it became commercialised, sanitised and diluted mush as newer bands jumped on the charabanc to pop-stardom to join established bands (eg The Guildford Stranglers) who switched from playing Pub-rock to the "new sound". Once the big labels (EMI, Polydor, Virgin etc.) got in on the act the whole scene became a pastiche of itself with only a few die-hard bands flying the flag, one of the most important being Crass and their breed of anarchic Art-punk, who were one of the first bands to observe that Punk wasn't Punk anymore.
Many of the early punk and new-wave bands have been seriously suggested for inclusion in the PA (The Stranglers, XTC, Magazine, Wire etc.) as they changed their style away from punk in the early 80s and began creating more "interesting" music - that kind of suggests to me that Punk became Prog.
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What?
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 04 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1049 |
Posted: August 04 2008 at 01:37 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: August 04 2008 at 14:18 |
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The Cardiacs ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: August 04 2008 at 14:41 |
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Would the hardcore punk of the 1980s - stuff like Discharge, Amebix and The Exploited - count as part of the few the die-hard bands flying the flag you mentioned? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 04 2008 at 14:54 |
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^ I'm not expert on Punk, but hardcore punk is regarded as part of the 2nd wave of UK punk, even if the bands in question were part of the 1st wave, they changed their style and went more "metal". I'd say they were also reacting to the commercialisation of Punk
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What?
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Toaster Mantis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 03:38 |
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... and you could have a second wave of real punk rock in the 1980s there's hardly reason to say that genre only lasted six months. |
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 05:13 |
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The second wave was not in the public eye in quite the same way as the initial Winter of '76 version, nor did it have the same impact on the Music press, which ultimately was the biggest affect on the Prog movement - it was the journalists (Paul Morely, Jon Savage, Julie Burchill, Jane Suck, Charlse Shar Murray, Caroline Coon, Nick Kent etc) who turned Punk into something far bigger that it really was and turned-off all support for Prog bands.
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What?
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fusionfreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 23 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1317 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 08:58 |
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That's right,moreover I remember Nick Kent giving his point of view about meeting Jon Anderson in the seventies.He said he had been introduced to Anderson by a journalist,he didn't care about him and told him "Now it's very good for you with Tales from topographic oceans but within six months Sex Pistols will come to the fore and it won't be the same for you".He added in the interview(in Rock'n Folk)that he had always thought of Jon Anderson as an entertainer and not a musician.All these journalists wanted to follow the next big thing and this thing was punk with booze,gentleman free manners,musicianship below average except some really good or strong stuff such as Pil,The Dictators,The Clash....pointless political statements most of the time.They must have been in search of hard drugs and some marijuana(reggae musicians learnt punk rockers how to roll a good spliff).Don't believe rock press and find your own path!Dean I can assure you we have the same type of critics in France:Virginie Despentes thinks that one can't love Led Zeppelin and rock in general without drugs(so stupid!) .Nicolas Ungemuth hates prog and spreads the same clichés regarding it and all that is about hippies(lazy people smoking pot,eating rice,playing bad music ) or Patrick Eudeline describing progrock as "the nightmare of my generation".Prog is still alive,not so well but standing tall till the end of times! |
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from crimson king |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 10:38 |
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No, but Andy Partridge is the Man Who Murdered Love.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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NurseryCryme89
Forum Groupie 
Joined: February 07 2008 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 55 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:18 |
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how could a bunch of talentless hacks ever touch prog?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 14:30 |
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^ they didn't have to - all they had to do was reach the the teenagers who were buying Prog, which they did very effectively.
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What?
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:09 |
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Are you trying to say that people who were buying or into Prog bands then suddenly went out & bought Punk records.If so I think you are way off the mark.There may have been a little bit of cross-over but this must have been a small proportion of fans.I think most Punk fans who were into this music was because it was the first time a form of music appealed to them.They might have bought the odd VDGG album etc. but they were never really into this music.I would say Mott the Hoople (or something similar) would have been their favourites before Punk kicked off.I don't think Prog album buyers suddenly then went & bought Punk singles or albums (apart from a small minority).
Heavy Rock/Metal was generally more popular than Punk even when it was at it's heights.During the early 80's Metal gained even more momentum.Punk fans went for a more hardcore style of metal perhaps,while alot of Prog Rock fans went for a more musically adventurous form of metal which formed the basis for the developement of Progressive Metal .Of course you have to allow for a new younger audience as well - perhaps alot of older began to stop buying records/going to gigs,partially as a result of the music press changing/loss of credibility (in Rock journo's eyes) in Prog Rock bands etc.
At present it is hard to work out whether some bands have a Hardcore or Progressive root for their form of metal they play or perhaps nether.The line between punk/prog/metal has become less defined but during the late seventies/early eighties there was definately a clear division.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 16:56 |
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You've read quite a lot into one sentence.
From my original contention that Punk only really lasted 6 months in the UK (1977) anything that happened in the 1980s was a consequence of that, but not a direct continuation of it. Hardcore, Metal (NWOBHM) and New Wave came after this period.
Many people who were buy Prog just stopped buying (and IMO, it's only recently that those people have been buying again as they hit the nostalgia trail), most of them hated Punk with a passion, though some did "jump ship" and others adopted the more friendly/intellectual side of Punk (eg Stiff artists like Elvis Costello and Ian Dury ... neither of whom were truely Punk). But the music press was not aimed at those people, it was aimed at the younger people who had more spare cash to spend.
For any scene to continue it must pull in new fans from the younger generations, back in the 70s the age ranges for different bands was far narrower than it is now, it was extremely unlikely that you would have liked the same music as someone a few years younger or older than yourself. The 13-17 year-olds who would have "bought into" in 1977 prog simply didn't.
So you are correct in that the new younger music fans were not buying into Prog because the music press told them it wasn't cool - Sounds, NME were the papers to read, (Melody Maker was slower off the mark, sticking to their traditional support for American Rock, Prog and Jazz, and their sales suffered as a consequence), and they hit the Punk bandwagon so set the scene for what to buy and what not to buy. Malcome MacLaren and the Pistols may have called prog bands dinosaurs, but it was the press who promoted that view and effectively made it a reality.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 20:03 |
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However, here in North America, times were too good, and punk only broke in 1993 with Nirvana busting down the barrier. Little mention has been given to west coast punkers like the Germs, Black Flag, Circle Jerks; straight edge pioneers Fugazi; lesser know lights like Operation Ivy, Agent Orange, DOA (from Canada who kept on 'til this day) NOFX and many others who simply toured as long as they could find clubs ready to book them. The 90s revival came about from the kids who had grown up on the American punk scene of the 80s.,,,,
So just as prog seemingly dropped out of sight, and re-emerged in the 80s, came back during the 90s, and again this century; with many of the newer bands harking back to the glory days of the 70s, and many naming influences from various 80s bands, and even 60s groups. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 359 |
Posted: August 07 2008 at 21:07 |
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Prog has never fully recovered from the blow dealt by punk. Bands like Yes used to play stadiums in the 1970s. What current prog band nowadays comes close to that sort of audience?
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: August 08 2008 at 18:11 |
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O.K.I believe we are more or less in agreement now |
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Man Erg
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 26 2004 Location: Isle of Lucy Status: Offline Points: 7456 |
Posted: August 08 2008 at 19:03 |
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Prog had just had it's 'Day(s) in the Sun'.The press saw to thet.Whether they they liked or not/Simply by the pure fact of reporting it's existance.
To the press,punk was the next big thing(income).Punk didn't kill prog, punk just used prog amd rhe media vehicle as an excuse for change. It was a case of cynical nihilism. The Pistols were fans of VdGG,Hammill.Hawkwind,Alice Cooper,Pink Fairies,Humble Pie/Small Faces .The Clash were Bowie/Mott/Fairies fans. It was time for a change.Prog was just an 'excuse' for a change. Richard Branson's Virgin label,probabaly the agents for the best selling prog albums/artists at the time,(Oldfield,Tangerine Dream,Hatfields,Gong etc.) signed the Pistols.In 'the great scheme of things',and after the oil crisis,record labels had to jump onto the 'new thing' and Punk was 'It',the new glam/pop. Don't ever mistake punk as a new genre of music. It just 'did' for prog.The shelf life was over and a new batch was needed. That's it as far as I am concerned.I,as well as many others,saw it happen at the time.It wasn't instantaneous but the radio stations dropped prog like a 'hot brick' around the end of 1976. As Dean said,'It(punk)lasted no longer than 6 months, but it's legacy is still felt to this day,. Edited by Man Erg - August 08 2008 at 19:28 |
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Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb. |
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Scratchy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 110 |
Posted: August 08 2008 at 19:15 |
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I almost totally disagree.Punk fans were a totally different, mainly younger audience - they probably didn't even know what Prog Rock was even.I was probably in the younger part of the age group that were first attrated to punk music - although I hated it.The punk movement did have a major impact on big Arena type bands which included the bigger Prog groups.The record promoters probably started wondering whether it was wise spending exsorbitant amounts of cash setting up massive live shows OR alternatively investing their money in promoting numerous speculative , up & coming groups instead (from '76 onwards there were a massive amount of Punk groups being formed - alot of which were actually put together by the promoters themselves - a cheaper way of making money).You could say Prog was a victim of it's own success.All I am trying to say is that the massive decline in the marketability of Prog was not music based exclusively but commercial because the music industry started looking for new revenue streams.The started doubting whether they could get returns from promoting rock dinosaur acts - who required massive
amounts of cash to set up tours etc. with no promise of great returns.
Also you do not seem to recognise the influence of NWOBHM had on prog.The biggest supported Prog bands were struggling to find promoters to set up their live shows & then music tastes of the more progressive inclined music listeners preferred a heavier sound.There were numerous new Prog styled bands who were clumped in with the NWOBHM but didn't make it due to this general change in music preference.The older Prog audience perhaps started to drift away - which is a normal accurance in music scenes anyway.The better / more experimental New wave bands may have attracted younger potential Prog fans as well - which ment that a continuous Prog scene was temparily halted until the Neo-prog rock scene was developed mostly by musicians who were into the older Prog bands and were now older enough & musically proficient enough to play music which at least sounded like their former idols.
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So punk killed the prog did it ?
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russellk wrote:
.I don't entirely agree with you about Sounds music paper though.At least from 1979 onwards anyway 
.I noticed you are a little bit older than I am so you might put right on this.Did Sounds get behind the the Punk movement between 76 & 78.