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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 18:49 |
Pnoom! wrote:
It's not that I don't like the bands (I do like both) and thank you for
explaining where they can be found to be original - as I actually do
question if people know what they're saying when they say it, so cheers. |
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. I've recently been a member of a forum where if you don't know what you're talking about you get absolutely grilled so that's made me more cautious about stating things I can't back up.
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It's a good thing! (not that I was questioning your integrity)  The one thing I don't like to see is exchanges of ignorance and I was hoping this would not turn into a discussion like that. Two sides of the coin must be shown, and honestly - I'd like a better insight and appreciation into the genres that I don't know so well. Unfortunately it takes a controversial topic to open those corridors sometimes.
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Pnoom!
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 18:51 |
For the record, I think that anyone who provides blanket condemnation for an entire genre, any genre, should inherently not be taken seriously, at least when it comes to that genre. Unless, of course, that genre is christian rock. That has no redeeming values.
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Pnoom!
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 18:54 |
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 19:01 |
Good thing too. Actually, I was looking for some pain when I posted it this morning  . One thing I try not to do is base an assumption on one album or band. GY!BE was not really for me in post rock, but I've taken a shining to the Sigur Ros I have (and am listening to Kayo Dot right now actually, for those who think I made this thread to spite them   ). It's just interesting to see where people's conceptions of originality comes from. I thought THE HUMAN EQUATION was wonderfully inventive in the story that it told and the way they told it, while other people see it as complete garbage. Opinions are interesting (and not exactly fragile) things
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Pnoom!
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 19:13 |
It's just interesting to see where people's conceptions of originality comes from. |
For many people I think it subconsciously comes from a need to justify listening to derivative music ("nuh-uh, TFK really are inventive!"), when the appropriate response is simply to like it for what it is. See, the great thing about taste is that it doesn't need to be justified. Not everything I listen to is one of a kind.
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 19:19 |
See, the great thing about taste is that it doesn't need to be justified |
Thank you! We've reached the crux of my point in the first post
(however vague that was). Does it need to be original to be likable?
No! My main frustration is that often people take music like this out
at the knees before giving it a chance just because it's not one of a
kind, and yet I have to respect more obscure genres because 'not
understanding' them is a cardinal sin!
This is not true entirely, but there is often an air of this in some threads/reviews
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Pnoom!
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 19:53 |
King By-Tor wrote:
See, the great thing about taste is that it doesn't need to be justified |
Thank you! We've reached the crux of my point in the first post
(however vague that was). |
Yeah, it was obscured a bit, hidden behind a straw man and the argument that SB are original, iirc
Does it need to be original to be likable?
No! My main frustration is that often people take music like this out
at the knees before giving it a chance just because it's not one of a
kind |
Well it is reasonable to prefer more original music.
and yet I have to respect more obscure genres because 'not
understanding' them is a cardinal sin! |
No, you have to respect them because no genre can truly be written off. It is my experience that ever serious genre has noteworthy gems, if only you look in the right places.
This is not true entirely, but there is often an air of this in some threads/reviews
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WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS THREAD ISN'T ABOUT MAGMA??
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 20:30 |
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Pnoom!
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 20:41 |
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 20:53 |
Yes. Yes I did.
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Henry Plainview
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Joined: May 26 2008
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Posted: June 28 2008 at 22:39 |
laplace wrote:
don't categorise me with ze angry posters I was nice :F |
Um, what does that face even mean? Urban dictionary tells me drooling, but that doesn't make any sense in this context...
What the hell is that comic frame from?
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Toaster Mantis
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 01:57 |
Pnoom! wrote:
It's just interesting to see where people's conceptions of originality comes from. |
For many people I think it subconsciously comes from a need to justify listening to derivative music ("nuh-uh, TFK really are inventive!"), when the appropriate response is simply to like it for what it is.
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But sometimes a rather derivative band can be original in a sense, if their music may not be remotely groundbreaking but have a lot of quirks that make it unique and distinctive.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 02:49 |
King By-Tor wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
@King By-Tor:
Just because you don't see any structure in the recordings of Kayo Dot doesn't mean there is none.
Later you asked: "How then is simply having no structure being original?"
Answer: Of course it isn't. But having an *unusual* structure can be original.
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Again, poor wording on my part. Thanks for the input though.
Indeed, unusual structure is unconventional, but I rarely find a time
when in today's music something comes out that is really NEW. Are we
becoming so thirsty for new ideas that well sacrifice what has always
worked well? Yes, of course, that's how we progress, kudos to the
experimental bands for that. However, I don't think that more
conventional bands need to be overlooked or called down at simply
because they use a conventional structure.
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I think that modern bands are in a somewhat awkward position. If they stick too closely to conventional structures they risk being pigeonholed as being "retro" or even "regressive". If they are too experimental or they use unusual stylistic influences they risk being overlooked by prog fans. Of course I think that either extreme is bad ... you shouldn't copy the style of other bands just to please the average listener, and you shouldn't try avoid stylistic similarities to other bands at any cost, just for the sake of being seen as original.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - June 29 2008 at 02:52
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 02:53 |
 My thoughts exactly
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Toaster Mantis
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 03:02 |
^^ It's safe to say that people today - myself included - worry too much about such things.
It's like we're afraid of approaching works of art (and prog albums surely are that) on their own terms and generally too eager to criticize. Again, I'm especially talking about myself.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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russellk
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Joined: February 28 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 04:04 |
This is very similar to the debate currently raging in fantasy writing. Indulge me for a moment.
Fantasy seems to be divided into the 'epic fantasy' (so-called 'Tolkien clones') and the 'new' fantasy (cyberpunk/steampunk/magical realism etc). One is seen as regressive, the other as progressive. I write and am published in the epic fantasy genre, but respect (and read) those who write in the more experimental end of the genre.
On the Tor website is this quote: "Epic fantasy characteristically produces its effects not so much by the novelty of its invention as by its depth of insight and strength of execution". To me this is key. So-called 'retro' fantasy, which I write, works for many people because they want depth. I think it's the same in music: people listen to retro-prog because they're looking for something to reaffirm their taste and at the same time add a little extra depth to their experience. Things don't always have to be new: good work is also done by people trying to make a familiar thing better.
While it's good to encourage experimentation in all areas of life, most of us also need the reassurance of ritual. Breakfast at the same time, living with the same people, and so on. Music is part of the flux of life, offering both experimentation and ritual. I find it odd that people would gravitate to one at the expense of the other, and odder still that one group would criticise the other. After all, your first listen to an album in a new genre was an experiment, and your tenth a ritual.
Like it or not, the prog genre – as evidenced by this site – is an uneasy amalgam of PROGRESSIVE music, designed to stretch or break convention, and RETRO-PROG, music designed to evoke the CLASSIC PROG period of the 70s. One ought not to be privileged over the other, and both are a part of human experience. The big mistake, in my opinion, is to disregard one or the other because of what it is. Adopting an inflexible position (“I hate avant-garde rubbish”, or “I hate derivative pap”) is to deprive oneself (and those who might be influenced by your point of view) of so many pleasurable experiences. Why on earth would you do it? Why not be a little more flexible, and enjoy everything in its season?
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laplace
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 04:27 |
Looking through my collection I've found music which obviously copies previous music, so it's not like I can't be swung to the retro side. Prefering Crucis and Shingetsu to Camel and Genesis is probably just wrong if you're testing for originality, even in such a subjective area. o:)
avant-prog bands can be highly unoriginal and even predictable themselves. after all, there's a chamber rock scene (UZ/AZ), a post-punky stripped down avant scene (Skeleton Crew/some Etron Fou, etc.), more recently a form of the genre based on genre-mashing (Zappa/Zorn/Bungle)... it takes a close listener to work out a band's avant-"allegiance" but they certainly exist and are predictable forms of their own, at their worst.
Maybe that is obvious? All I see lately is avant dismissed as "generic unlistenable noise" so maybe not. I hope the people who were a little too uptight in this thread can identify their own retro tastes. o:)
also:
Henry Plainview wrote:
laplace wrote:
don't categorise me with ze angry posters I was nice :F |
Um, what does that face even mean? Urban dictionary tells me drooling, but that doesn't make any sense in this context...
What the hell is that comic frame from? |
It is a post-emoticon, IE, a hieroglyphic face that DOESN'T relay contextual information. urban dictionary cramps my style.
um, my sig has disappeared now, like everyone's, but if you meant my userbar then it was a close cropping of a picture of Hello Kitty and it lead to my last.fm band page.
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Henry Plainview
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 04:35 |
laplace wrote:
also:
Henry Plainview wrote:
laplace wrote:
don't categorise me with ze angry posters I was nice :F | Um, what does that face even mean? Urban dictionary tells me drooling, but that doesn't make any sense in this context...
What the hell is that comic frame from? |
It is a post-emoticon, IE, a hieroglyphic face that DOESN'T relay contextual information. urban dictionary cramps my style.
um, my sig has disappeared now, like everyone's, but if you meant my userbar then it was a close cropping of a picture of Hello Kitty and it lead to my last.fm band page. |
I was talking about that emoticon, sorry, I probably should have said that instead of face.
So basically, it doesn't mean anything and you're only adding it to waste space because you like appearing "cute"? I ask merely for the purpose of clarification.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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laplace
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 04:39 |
are you asking to appear like a pedantic, confrontational internet nerd? ;P
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Henry Plainview
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Posted: June 29 2008 at 04:41 |
I'm just wondering what exactly is the purpose of something that conveys no meaning. I don't consider that question pedantic.
Edited by Henry Plainview - June 29 2008 at 04:44
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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