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Raff 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
 Posted: June 07 2008 at 01:47 |
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Teo, the bands I mentioned in my above post were not so much avant-garde as ORIGINAL. There is a big difference between these two concepts. I'm sure other people on PA will scoff at anything that is not avant-garde, but not people like me. I'm not an Avant fan, and I know very little about the subgenre, but I do like some originality with my music. Though retro-prog is perfectly OK with me, let's face it.. not everyone is Spock's Beard, Transatlantic or The Tangent.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 01:57 |
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Seems we want to be unhappy at any cost.
Please guys, what do you want?
Give Prog Archives a chance, Contrarian is being supported, but they are supporting the site also, they are helping to pay the bills. CONTRARIAN is IMO an excellent band, of course they have influences of the 70's, FOR GOD'S SAKE, THIS IS HARD PROG WITH SYMPHONIC LEANINGS...IT HAS TO SOUND INFLUENCED BY 70's BANDS!!!! I love Symphonic and like it or not, what some call retro Prog is the most popular sound in this site, if you make a poll, probably the bands sounding like in the 70's will win in popularity by far.
Contrarian dares to use influences, but they don't clone anybody, they take this influence and work it in a different and more aggressive way, they keep the spirit of USA Prog but dare to be adventurous.
I believe it's a real promissing band, the funny thing is that when HT added them everybody agreed we were talking about a solid Prog band, but now that is featured, everybody has something to say against them.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 07 2008 at 02:26 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 02:27 |
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Ivan, I didn't mean to cause you any distress, or to undermine the work of your team.... I didn't even know who had added Contrarian, so my opinion is totally unbiased, and based exclusively on the music I heard - which didn't exactly set me on fire. However, I never said they shouldn't be featured, or anything like that, and I think my own posts were calm and respectful (unlike some others).
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 03:04 |
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Well said Ivan, M@x efforts to make to advertising on the site more relevant are to be applauded and encouraged.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 08:23 |
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Honestly Ivan... I'm a bit disappointed... I hope the group at least understands the difference between constructive criticism and flaming for the hell of it. You like them... that's great... several of us that have spoken up have not said they are a bad group... but instead offer advice and feedback geared to help them in our opinions. Don't take it so personal  re: the finanical side.. .we all know the story on that... 'paying the bills' doesn't wash. M@X is free to earn what he can... but we all know that this is more than just keeping PA's afloat and the survival of our beloved site. That was made clear to us. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 11:06 |
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Your commentary was positive Raff, I know we will not agree with something and you know I fought for that, and this is not the problem. Phrases like "Retro Cheese" are offensive and uncalled, yes, I like music with roots in the 60's and 70's, normally I don't like Avant (Well, as everybody knows I fought for the addition of Factor Burzaco which I believe is pure genius), and that makes me no less proghead than anybody. Others say: " but I think we should aim for the ones with less of a 70's sound, and go for the ones who are a bit off the grind, and original, or at least portray some form of originality" The question is why? Because this person doesn't like 70's oriented bands? Well, most people here like 70's oriented Prog much more than anything else, and we should accept any Prog band who wants to invest,. doesn't matter if they sound as in the 60's or 00's, as long as we can express our opinion, there should be no problem. Personally I would point towards these bands, because this is the sound I like more, but that'ds not the point, we should promote and support every form, style and sub-genre of Prog, without any limit. What do this guys want? Google based propaganda of unknown churches or X rated sites as we had to accept before? Some time ago a group of Dream Theater fans though they had the only truth, now some fans of more adventurous Prog are looking traditionally oriented bands as if they were second class, this is absurd, Prog is Prog, some is good, some is band, I believe CONTRARIAN is really good but agree to disagree, that's not the problem.
Micky, don't be disappointed, I'm in favor of multiple tastes, that's what Prog is about, but I see people judging CONTRARIAN without haven't heard more than two samples, but what is worst, questioning them as being not worthy of receive advertising by us.....Hey, people is not knocking at our doors begging us to give them a spot, M@X has to search for supporters, we're N° 1 Prog site in the net, but there are lots of musical sites with more visits than us outside the Prog universe.
Believe me Micky, it's just keeping the site alive, the whole world is in crisis, I been trying to help M@X with some advertising (without asking for a dime, just in case), I talked for example with Viajero Inmovil Records who manage Factor Burzaco because I made a good personal connection with the owner of the label, and they simply can't afford the US$ 100.00 a month of propaganda because the situation in our part of the world is critic, we pay 10 times the taxes than anybody else, they just can't do it now. Big bands (which are not always the best) won't invest directly in advertising, they allow their labels do that for them and believe me, most big labels just don't care about the Prog sites to advertise them, they rather pay a spot in Rolling Stones because they sell millions of copies. We have to stay with new bands willing to take the risk (we are a risk also) and with some money to spend, and we must be proud that bands like Glass Hammer or CONTRARIAN who are considered by many as part of the And this is excellent, we are supporting new bands, the future of Prog, like it or not, CONTRARIAN will be one of the biggest new acts, they are doing things right and have the talent, some will like them, others won't, what the hell, some people hate Genesis or ELP despite they are icons. By my side I can't be happier this guys are placing their trust in us, because they could also had gone to other non Prog sites that have the same number or more visits than us, and believe me, they would had got some thousand albums sold also. Lets thank those who trust in us and support all Prog, and if you believe you can do it better, go take the chance and search for some propaganda. BTW: Listen all CONTRARIAN album before giving an opinion. Iván . |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 12:02 |
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Re the cost comment Micky.
As you may have seen elsewhere, it has been suggested that the server needs upgrading again. That's just one of the many costs M@x looks after for us without ever calling upon us for contributions.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 12:51 |
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^ very true... personally I don't have a problem with this kind of revenue income.. as long as no perferential treatment is accorded the group. Flames should be extinguished.. as they always should be... but rational feedback that is not exactly glowing is fair game. Some here aren't privy to what has gone on and been discussed.. and might think that this site is actively promoting these groups.. rather than allowing them to purchase the space to let their music promote itself.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 13:53 |
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Here I have a friendly disagreement Micky, if Prog doesn't have the site that deserves in the world musical context is because lack of support, what we MUST do here is essentially support new bands if we want Prog to survive. Of course support with absolute freedom and respect, we won’t say a band is great if we believe they suck, but we can always find something good in every band, and if they also support us….much better, it’s a symbiotic relation for the good of Prog. We’ve done this a lot of times, for example last year I received the album “Dreamer” by Anton Roolaart, I made an honest review in which I said the music is outstanding but the voice is hard to get in, he published the review in his site equally and despite my comment, because we are here to say our truth and ghe accepted it. But we also gained something, we were the ONLY Prog site in the world to add Anton Roolaart and review “Dreamer” the exact day of it’s world official debut, I still receive some comments from Anton who I see as a friend. The same goes with bands as Shadow Circus or even bands I didn’t liked too much like Er. J. Orchestra or Rumblin Orchestra, but they are Prog bands so I felt my duty to support them, won’t give them a 5 stars rating, but tried to be 100% honest without prejudices. There’s nothing wrong in supporting new artists, it’s a duty for those of us who love Prog, I don’t understand people who write pages of pages insisting for Boston or Toto which at the most are tangentially related Prog (I believe not even that) and don’t need our support, but this same people feel embarrassed to support 100% PROG BANDS that deserve and NEED our help. Years ago I used to talk with Lynette from The Red Masque, a fabulous Avant Band from Timothy Boney from CONTRARIAN has to work in the legal area furing the day because there’s not enough support for the artists, he could be using all his available time to be even better, but he has to live and has a family, why can't we promote them with the truth? I see no problem in supporting new artists, as a fact I feel it’s our duty. Iván |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46833 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 14:05 |
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we do support them Ivan... and sometimes the best support is telling them what them may not want to hear... as I said.. compare them to others out there making new prog.. and they come up on the short end of the stick.. and groups like that ..if they aren't extremely talented or can put themselves above others by doing something new.. or different are just going to be crushed and forgotten. To me that is supporting a group far more than blind applause now.. and forgetting them in a month or two.
Prog will only survive Ivan.. by expanding the horizons.. not by putting out generic been there and done that stuff. When that happens.. prog becomes as fomulamatic and simple as the pop music we all love to sh*t upon. That is why I promote groups that I just don't like.. but also groups ..and there are a lot of them these days .. that are taking new and different musical influences and creating something new with it. Just as they did in the 70's. Edited by micky - June 07 2008 at 14:06 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 14:34 |
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Giving opinions is necesary, I never chalenged that, but calling them retro Prog just because we believe that anything remotely inspired in the past is bad, is wrong.
As I said neither I give a blind applause, to say the truth, but also to guive them a place where to promote what they are doing, like it or not.
And fogetting them is not my style Micky, I keep in contact with most of the bands I added and which whom I made contact, I don't believe Contrarian is going to be crushed and forgotten, they are doing what most Progheads like and they are doing it very well, but this is only my perspactive.
Not necesarilly Micky, Prog doesn't have to change for everybody, Prog can be reinvented, Anglagard and Par Lindh Project did it in the 90's when most of the people believed Prog was dead...Did they made something new? No, they went more radically classic, and they are icons.
There are bands who are expanding Symphonic, take Deluge Grander for example, they are absolutely respectful to the 70's but they are also doing something new, re-inventing Symphonic in the 21st Century, that's also a way of making Prog.
Why do they need to change? Some wil and some won't, I believe Prog is wide enough for everybody, I love Symphonic Prog from Eastern Europe, and they are creating nothing radically new, they just take good old Symphonic, blend it with their natural ethnic sound and re-invent a new fresh sound.
Some people like old Melodic Prog, we don't need to like ultra complex structures or radically new things, some will and some won't, as simple as that, and I believe we must promote and support all of them.
Almost everything hads been done in music, there's nothing absolutely new under the sun, everybody has an influence, and who else will a Prog band search as influence than another Prog band?
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 07 2008 at 14:37 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 18:36 |
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As I said before, and Raf I think you misunderstood me, the bands that most likely will continue to want to make deals with PA are retro-prog bands, for a simple reason: they don't mind 9and they're quite honoured actually) by being labeled "prog", unlike many of those who are a bit off the grind, and original, or at least portray some form of originality" . In the end, the bands that keep prog's flame alive are, mostly, retro bands, neo bands, or prog-metal (traditional) bands... In most cases, other kind of groups will actually dislike being associated with the term "prog" or with any label. So, yes!, a more original band could be our featured artist, but we should be happy with what we have. Torman Maxt was a disaster (it has received the ratings it deserves) but it was the first. now CONTRARIAN is a much better band and, most importantly, comes in much better terms (no censorship) so i think this complaining, for once, doesn't have my full support, as I know that the "prog artist of the month" will always have to be one that doesn't fear being called one.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21206 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 18:48 |
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I see a problem with the heading: "Featured Artist". In fact it's really just advertising, but to the typical visitor it seems like the album or artist is some kind of editorial recommendation. That can lead to much disappointment and/or confusion, when people check out the music and find that it's only average quality. No insult intended ... as I said, the big expectation comes from how the album is currently presented. A simple banner with a *short* text might actually be more effective.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: June 07 2008 at 18:55 |
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Constructive criticism.
Oops, kinda late. Anyway, I just thought of something. While most groups, new ones included, will attract buyers that for one reason or another believe there may be something of interest to them in the music. So if I've read a review describing band X as Symphonic or Neo-Prog, and I am not a fan of those genres, I'm not likely to go out and get it. The relevancy of this comment refers to the fact that any one browsing PA can give a listen to Contrarian and give their opinion. Which is O.K. . Except that you're going to get some who don't care for the band's style or genre (retro-prog / gorp-orter, whatever) who are going to want to come forward with their view. We have had threads debating the usefulness or fairness of reviewing groups that are outside of our usual tastes, or that we may actually dislike. Something as to why this might skew ratings. But in this case here, it should be more about seeing if band X is enjoyable to folks who like their sort of music. Heaven knows, if we ever get a RIO/Avant-Garde group advertising in this space, that we would have a heated debate as to whether those who don't "get" it should bother reviewing such an artistically validated genre as R/A-G  . |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 04 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1049 |
Posted: June 08 2008 at 10:50 |
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I got the MP3 version of the CD from the link this site gave me awhile ago (MP3 version was only about $5 so I took the gamble why not) this band isn't bad in places they are very good actually they seem to know how to play good quality American home grown type prog when they want to but the vocals took me some time to get used to , the only thing I dislike about them is their tendency to go boogy woogy in southern style rock style when they run dry of ideas but few bands are perfect so unless you have heard the CD I believe you should either get it or refrain from judging them , the two tracks we have here to listen to are not two of the better ones. Seriously I would recommend this CD to especially Proto Kaw and Kansas fans ;) good band could easily progress to very good they have the ingredients to. its Worth $5 easily
 Edited by Yorkie X - June 08 2008 at 10:56 |
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: June 17 2008 at 21:28 |
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Heh, just had a thought. M@x should just spam each page with ads, then put a link to firefox's adblocker on the homepage. :P That might be less controversial. (among members anyway) :D
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ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: March 08 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2755 |
Posted: June 18 2008 at 05:03 |
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Based upon the tracks available for streaming here, I certainly wouldn't question the addition of Contrarian. One of them put me in mind of a poor man's Symphony X, while the other was forgettable enough that I can't remember who it reminded me of. It was definitely a respectable prog act, though.
It is enough that these prog acts are willing to pay M@X for the exposure they get here. I certainly let myself be exposed. It may be too much to insist that they be great, or even good. Edited by ghost_of_morphy - June 18 2008 at 05:05 |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: June 18 2008 at 19:25 |
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And from the sound of some of them, their ear drums also. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Contrarian
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
