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MikeEnRegalia 
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 Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:42 |
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^ by volatile I meant artists who rapidly change genre/style from album to album. For such artists inclusion can be difficult because only *one* genre can be selected. I think there'll never be a consensus about bands which are on the fringes of prog or even prog related ... but on the other hand these inclusions are not #1 priority anyway.
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The T
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:53 |
 akin wrote:
Nothing to discuss with you anymore. All of your arguments are based on the false assumptions you made about me.
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Excellent. Now the rest of the crowd can hear your opinion, if you want.
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bluesynight
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Joined: March 03 2008
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Points: 103
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:57 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Metallica can be considered to be Proto-Prog Thrash Metal. They're not so much "Prog" in terms of style, but on Master of Puppets and And Justice For All they were ground-breaking, very technical and quirky ...
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i wont deny that And Justice For All was a great album but i cant call it prog, and even if you consider it as prog, they still had only two good albums, overall they have 10 albums( not including Garage Inc of course). i cant counsidare them as Proto-Prog because the influence was mostly on metal and not on the prog.
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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The T
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 12:59 |
But I thought we have agreed long ago that bands that have at least a couple of progressive albums can be listed here, even if the rest of the discography is not.
Stratovarius style is simple and barely progressive. They don't have one single album that can be called fully progressive. On the other hand (and just to mention) Metallica has TWO albums where, in my view and that of others, they played almost 100% pure prog-metal, where they laid they foundations for the genre even without really knowing or wanting to do it. The case for Stratovarius is weaker and has no strength. If we were to add the band then we could start adding them all, like someone suggested. No, we can't start adding every band out of spite.
There are teams who decide what is part of a genre and what is "volatile". And there are members who have the possibility of deciding about those volatile artists, usually after some public (or not so public) discussion. I think the system is fine as it is. And as such, it seems Stratovarius won't be in PA soon...
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The T
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:04 |
bluesynight wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Metallica can be considered to be Proto-Prog Thrash Metal. They're not so much "Prog" in terms of style, but on Master of Puppets and And Justice For All they were ground-breaking, very technical and quirky ...
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i wont deny that And Justice For All was a great album but i cant call it prog, and even if you consider it as prog, they still had only two good albums, overall they have 10 albums( not including Garage Inc of course). i cant counsidare them as Proto-Prog because the influence was mostly on metal and not on the prog. |
That's one of the strongest arguments that people who oppose Metallica have, and I think it's partially true. I think by influencing prog-metal is influencing a prog genre and therefore prog, but that can be debated. I would've added Metallica to the prog-metal genre, directly, not to a proto genre. But again, that discussion was over long ago when owners said NO  so we better go back to Stratovarius...
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bluesynight
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Joined: March 03 2008
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Points: 103
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:25 |
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i think that the "policies" are not clear enough, and ppl starting to judge bands over they personal taste.
for example on the prog-metal page it says that its enough to be power with classical elements to be considered as Modern Progressive Power Metal (American Style), but
now when stratovarius is discussed ppl starting to say stuff
like....they not technical enough, or they lyrics are not deep enough,
and i think that this kind of thing are more of personal opinions. i
think that the policies should be more specific about this things.
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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Avantgardehead
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Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
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Points: 1170
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:28 |
bluesynight wrote:
i think that the "policies" are not clear enough, and ppl starting to judge bands over they personal taste. |
I suspect a good number of bands are here because people found themselves liking a non-prog band and needed to justify it by somehow linking it to prog. Anyway, the Metallica thing is quite the stretch in my opinion, but luckily that was settled (you can now proceed in saying I don't know what prog-metal is and/or have obviously never heard Metallica  ). Stratovarius have no prog elements in their music, unless you want to start added every single metal band that has ever used classical influences.
Edited by Avantgardehead - April 30 2008 at 13:31
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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bluesynight
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Joined: March 03 2008
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 13:58 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
Stratovarius have no prog elements in their music, unless you want to start added every single metal band that has ever used classical influences.
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i have my own opinions about what is prog and what is not, but on this forum im judging bands by this site policies, and by this site policies being power with classical elements is enough. if its not enough then the policies should be changed. and just for the fun of it...how many power metal band with classical elements you know? not including prog bands of course.
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:03 |
bluesynight wrote:
Avantgardehead wrote:
Stratovarius have no prog elements in their music, unless you want to start added every single metal band that has ever used classical influences.
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i have my own opinions about what is prog and what is not, but on this forum im judging bands by this site policies, and by this site policies being power with classical elements is enough. if its not enough then the policies should be changed.
and just for the fun of it...how many power metal band with classical elements you know? not including prog bands of course.
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It's not enough, that's exactly why Stratovarius won't be added. How many more times will you deliberately turn our words around?
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 30 2008 at 14:04
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:06 |
bluesynight wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Metallica can be considered to be Proto-Prog Thrash Metal. They're not so much "Prog" in terms of style, but on Master of Puppets and And Justice For All they were ground-breaking, very technical and quirky ...
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i wont deny that And Justice For All was a great album but i cant call it prog, and even if you consider it as prog, they still had only two good albums, overall they have 10 albums( not including Garage Inc of course). i cant counsidare them as Proto-Prog because the influence was mostly on metal and not on the prog. |
Have you ever listened to Dream Theater? If you need an obvious example - listen to Train of Thought. But Metallica is written all over the other DT albums too if you listen closely.
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bluesynight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 03 2008
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:24 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Have you ever listened to Dream Theater? If you need an obvious example - listen to Train of Thought. But Metallica is written all over the other DT albums too if you listen closely.
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i wont deny the influence, especially in six degrees Of Inner Turbulence and systematic chaos, but DT is all so influenced by muse, but its not like without metallica there would be no DT.
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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The T
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:37 |
bluesynight wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Have you ever listened to Dream Theater? If you need an obvious example - listen to Train of Thought. But Metallica is written all over the other DT albums too if you listen closely.
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i wont deny the influence, especially in six degrees Of Inner Turbulence and systematic chaos, but DT is all so influenced by muse, but its not like without metallica there would be no DT.
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I disagree. Without Metallica, there hardly could've been an Images And Words.... The riffing in that album is so much influenced by Metallica... As are the structures... You have to take the "influence" thing not only as "sounds like" but as the influence in the playing itslef, in the type of riffs, in the harmonies, even in the drumming... Without Metallica I'm not sure my favorite band, DT, would exist as it is.
Muse, on the other hand, is a NEWER band than DT. Yes, DT has been influenced by Muse in some songs in the latest albums wherein they have used some very similar riffs and ideas... but that doesn't mean DT's overall sound has been influenced by Muse, just some of their most recent songs. Muse wasn't there where DT released more than half of their albums...
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:42 |
Avantgardehead wrote:
bluesynight wrote:
i think that the "policies" are not clear enough, and ppl starting to judge bands over they personal taste. |
I suspect a good number of bands are here because people found themselves liking a non-prog band and needed to justify it by somehow linking it to prog. There may be a few cases of that... but IF that's so, that mostly happens in prog-related... and there's always a big enough link between the band and prog..
Anyway, the Metallica thing is quite the stretch in my opinion, but luckily that was settled (you can now proceed in saying I don't know what prog-metal is and/or have obviously never heard Metallica ). You obviously have never heard Metallica    ,,,,, No, I understand your point though I disagree. Stratovarius have no prog elements in their music, unless you want to start added every single metal band that has ever used classical influences. Here we agree. If Stratovarius was here, the door would be opened for many other bands.... A case could be made for Dragonforce (it's so fast!) or for Hammerfall (oh so epic!) and then for Helloween (they influenced most EVERY power metal band...by the way, they have a couple of songs that are progressive-ish..)
Stratovarius, again, is great power metal, but with simple structures, normal technique, normal harmonies, etc. Just good epic power metal.
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bluesynight
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 14:56 |
The T wrote:
I disagree. Without Metallica, there hardly could've been an Images And Words....
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Images And Words? it was influenced by rush, and in my opinion genesis.
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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Avantgardehead
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Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:09 |
bluesynight wrote:
and just for the fun of it...how many power metal band with classical elements you know? not including prog bands of course.
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The vast majority of power metal bands have classical influence. That's a pretty defining characteristic of the genre. Sonata Arctica, for one, is/was a power metal band that had plenty of classical influences. And back to Metallica for a bit, the whole argument for their inclusion is very skewed in my opinion. I don't believe in adding something that is inversely prog, ie not prog of it's own merits but rather prog because of what others did. Sure, they wrote long songs, and they had little pretty guitar parts and everything, but it was still thrash metal. A 30-minute nu-metal song is still nu-metal (Deftones - MX).
Edited by Avantgardehead - April 30 2008 at 15:13
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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The T
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:27 |
The case with Metallica is closed, but just as a note, is not the length of the songs or the pretty guitar parts but, IMO, the approach to riffing and the structuring of songs... but their inclusion is impossible right now, so I guess we have to go back to Stratovarius...
By the way, if there ever is a 30 minute nu-metal song, that would be torture...
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bluesynight
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 15:38 |
The T wrote:
if there ever is a 30 minute nu-metal song, that would be torture...
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 SO TRUE!! the argument about metallica became more about they influence on prog, rather then about they adding. as for stratovarius, in my opinion by this site policies they are prog, but the policies are not specific enough, and this argument become more about personal taste(A.K.A never ending pointless loops).
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The Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scotts as a joke, but the Scotts haven't seen the joke yet.
(Oliver Herford)
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Avantgardehead
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Joined: December 29 2006
Location: Dublin, OH, USA
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Posted: April 30 2008 at 16:00 |
The T wrote:
By the way, if there ever is a 30 minute nu-metal song, that would be torture... |
Deftones - MX
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http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian
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Jonny Two Shoes
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Joined: May 23 2008
Location: South Africa
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Posted: May 23 2008 at 17:08 |
As a new member here I am well aware that flaming others is not considered good practice. So I shall try refrain.
However...this topic of discussion is...............................(let me behave rather :))
Stratovarius not considered a prog band? Yet you include Metallica on these forums? You go as far as saying Metallica influenced Dream Theater? IMO Metallica has not influenced any band on the same league as Stratovarius so I don't know how that conclusion was made. Put the two head to head on stage together? Now let us talk.
Nightwish? Not meant to be on these forums either? hmmmmmm......
No matter what roots a band has, no matter whether or not they incorporate classical, jazz, pop, country or blues in their music it should make no difference. Progressive music in my opinion is all about the structure, or rather the lack thereof. This simple difference in this genre defines a musician because, well lets be frank...what's more difficult? Following your typical verse chorus structure or trying to remember an entire song from start to finish? And honestly anyone who says Stratovarius are not musically talented deserves a kick up the @rs*! You try pick up a guitar and play to them! (There is more than one thread on this topic so I relate these comments to all)
Listen I can go on and on but bottom line is that Stratovarius is progressive and I am quite amused this topic is even open to debate especially considering some other bands in the mix here. Take another listen to them and tell me you can consider it purely power metal.
(BTW I am not a fan of Stratovarius)
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luger7
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Posted: December 01 2008 at 20:12 |
I love Stratovarius but I think They don't belong here....although I was shocked when I found Rhapsody here(i love it too) It's pure (symphonic, yes) Power Metal! so it seems any band with symphonic elements is considered prog  ..... sooooooo... Metallica is here? well, Iron Maiden? (yeah!!!!) I vote for Helloween then...just kidding (c'mon...Helloween...please....)
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Stratovarius
