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Avantgardehead View Drop Down
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 04:57
A good deal of prog metal seems to forever dwell within the cesspool of Dream Theater mimicry. Others fall into the pit of metal + keyboards + ridiculous guitar solos + wailing vocals = prog metal. But then you have bands like Enslaved, Pain of Salvation, Devin Townsend, Novembre, Agalloch, maudlin of the Well, etc, who write metal that channels the spirit of 70's/true (uh oh!) prog.
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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 05:57
^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:15
^ Can't there be a way to combine riffs and the spirit of 70's prog? Is "70's prog" so rigid and unflexible that it doesn't allow riffs?
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:26
It depends how they're used - the whole point is that 70s Prog is like the ultimate in flexible rock music.
 
Basing the music on riffs AND standard song structures introduces an inflexibility that is not inherent in the best of 70s Prog (or even some of the worst...).
 
No-one would claim Hawkwind as the ultimate Prog band, for example, but it is the developing soundscape inherent in their music that creates an overall feeling of spontaneity whilst being rooted in a solid structure - and gives rise to them being included among the Prog echelons. Although, tellingly, never the upper echelons - they're not the first band you'd think of when you talk about Prog, but they're too heavy to be punk, too out there to be pop and too punk to be "proper" Prog.
 
So we get them Big%20smile
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:36
^ Still waiting for you to tear apart Heaven's Cry ... I think they're came very close to combining Metal and 70's Prog. Psychotic Waltz also come to mind here, but of course they're less symphonic/melodic.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 06:54

"Symphonic" and "melodic" are not essential components of Prog - I just trawled YouTube for Enslaved, which is very melodic (and while I liked them, they're utterly predictable) Viking Metal - but not Prog, as I expected. Kinda made me think of a much lighter and less rhythmically pedantic Cradle of Filth.

I'd forgotten about "Heaven's Cry"... trawling now.
 
 
 
/edit 2: What do you think of Panzerballett?


Edited by Certif1ed - May 08 2008 at 07:04
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 07:02
^ lol ... it's not only a remix, but also a different band ... here's the real one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwza4uNvQhY

Smile
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 07:58
Exactly what I'd expect.
 
Sounds just like modern metal that wants to be Prog - but it's missing the whole "Prog" thing altogether. The thing with 70's Prog is that it's in no way generic, as this song is; it's a style (and a somewhat narrow metal style at that), rather than a compositional approach.
 
It could be any of 100 "Prog" bands I've reviewed on Garageband recently - none of whom have appreciated my comments, for some bizarre reason... Evil%20Smile
 
Think of King Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant, VDGG, ELP, Yes, Focus - even Camel. What do they have in common apart from sounding exactly like themselves?
 
Prog is not a style or fashion, it's an approach - or a (free) spirit, as Avantgardehead put it.
 
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:19
Trinacria (Enslaved + Fe-mail = metal+noise). A lot more metal than noise, but still a 100 times more interesting than Heaven's Cry, Psychotic Waltz etc. Both great, but Turn Away's the most intersting one imo.
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 08:54
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Exactly what I'd expect.
 
Sounds just like modern metal that wants to be Prog - but it's missing the whole "Prog" thing altogether. The thing with 70's Prog is that it's in no way generic, as this song is; it's a style (and a somewhat narrow metal style at that), rather than a compositional approach.
 
It could be any of 100 "Prog" bands I've reviewed on Garageband recently - none of whom have appreciated my comments, for some bizarre reason... Evil%20Smile
 
Think of King Crimson, Genesis, Gentle Giant, VDGG, ELP, Yes, Focus - even Camel. What do they have in common apart from sounding exactly like themselves?
 
Prog is not a style or fashion, it's an approach - or a (free) spirit, as Avantgardehead put it.
 


You say that Prog is not a style. Yet you complain about the style of that Heaven's Cry song. If Prog is not a style, how can the style of a song be an indication of whether it's prog or not?

I really hope that at one point you'll find the time to listen to one of the two HC albums in full length. I'm not exactly expecting you to change your mind, but somehow I resent the notion of HC being "generic". That one song which is available on Youtube is not a good indication anyway, the songs on their myspace page offer a better overview of their music. But as with any good prog band: If you want to know what their albums are like you'll need to listen to them in full!
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Points: 27802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 09:43
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

Trinacria (Enslaved + Fe-mail = metal+noise). A lot more metal than noise, but still a 100 times more interesting than Heaven's Cry, Psychotic Waltz etc. Both great, but Turn Away's the most intersting one imo.
 
I just recently discovered Trinacria...great band! Clap


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Points: 1009 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 11:39
Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.
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Points: 190 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:13
Perhaps a Prog Metal band that incorporates more "true" elements, if you wish to call it that, would be Ephel Duath. I only have one track from a compilation CD (I think you can stream the very same one on here), but it certainly has jazz elements, at least. Less riff based than  a lot of prog metal, in my opinion, but I may, of course be wrong. Their other music may prove a little more...usual.
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Points: 4981 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 13:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
 
not mutually exclusive
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 14:51
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.


I'm glad you enjoyed them!Smile
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

Mike,   As you know Cert and I are in relative agreement on this subject, BUT... I finally did take the Heaven's Cry plunge at your suggestion and I find them to be pretty good.  There's are hints of Magic Pie, Overhead, and maybe early Garden Wall in there that I rather like.  The main thing I appreciate from them is the fact that the playing does not get in the way of the songs, kinda like Fate's Warning in that way.  A Good solid 3.5 stars from a non- Prog metal fan.


I'm glad you enjoyed them!Smile
 
Nothing to do with the subject but RVS records (Heaven's Cry label) robbed me 12 EUROS as I paid and they never delivered or answered my emails..Cry So I'm off to a awful start with that band... But, stubborn after hearing Mike's praise, I ordered it again from another source, and I hope I'll be enjoying it soon...
 
So, please, if you read Mike's comments, don't rush an buy the album from the label... it doesn't exist anymore I think. get it from another local source.
 
This has been a public service announcement for your financial health from The T
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21163 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 15:33
^ I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're aware that their albums are available for download on their website ... of course it doesn't compare to owning the CD, but at least for their first album it's the only way to get to listen to it.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:24
Originally posted by Pnoom! Pnoom! wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

^I'll check out some of the other bands you mention, but having reviewed Pain of Salvation's "Remedy Lane", I can state categorically that it does not "channel the spirit of 70's prog" as I understand it - it's a metal album with riffs and everything.
 
Quite good, but a metal album with a story concept, first and foremost - filled with songs, not Prog Rock compositions.
 
not mutually exclusive
 
I'm differentiating between standard song form (intro, verse, chorus, etc), which is an easy way of cobbling a piece of music together, and a composition in a form more elaborate than standard song - so they are mutually exclusive from that point of view.
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Pnoom! View Drop Down
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Points: 4981 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 17:28
It would be worthwhile to clarify that distinction then (as you have just done), since Supper's Ready is still a song in the general sense.
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keiser willhelm View Drop Down
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Points: 1697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 18:31
im extremely biased when it comes to this and i am not in anyway belittling traditional PM or Tech PM, i love them both to death, but the metal more true to the seventies spirit of compositional pieces and development rather than verse and chorus songs is the Experimental/Post sub genre.

What im listening to
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