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debrewguy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 13:59
Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

for your info, I am no "generic metal fan", I don't even like manowar, I was merely commenting....

have you even read the whole thread?  some new conclusions were arrived at over the course of the thread....



How can you like metal , but not Manowar ? Don't the three go together like Peanut Butter and Ham ?
ALL MEN PLAY ON TEN !  Then they go to bed at 10:30 ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:39
pfffffffttttt.

Manowar is only good for jocular times, I cannot take them seriously as a legitimate band otherwise, but maybe that is the whole point.  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 14:48
Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 15:27
HOW THE HELL IS THIS THREAD STILL ALIVE


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 15:44
Its still alive because people like us keep posting in it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 17:01
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
What band are you talking about Mr. 87? Let me take note so that I can suggest its deletion from the archives after such a deep excellent analytical argument you have given us...
 
What is that band please?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 17:20
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
What band are you talking about Mr. 87? Let me take note so that I can suggest its deletion from the archives after such a deep excellent analytical argument you have given us...
 
What is that band please?
 
 


oh golly! i lol'd so much right now . . . . LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 17:32
Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

for your info, I am no "generic metal fan", I don't even like manowar, I was merely commenting....

have you even read the whole thread?  some new conclusions were arrived at over the course of the thread....

there is no such thing as metal superiority to me, in fact the majority of it is full of fault, and is rather generic, there are only a select few who are worthwhile...if you have not figured out by now, for me Metal=love/hate.




you may not be a die hard metal fan, but she is




Edited by CCVP - May 07 2008 at 17:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 19:34
Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

  I don't even like manowar,


a false, Thumbs%20Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:08
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
What band are you talking about Mr. 87? Let me take note so that I can suggest its deletion from the archives after such a deep excellent analytical argument you have given us...
 
What is that band please?
 
 
Clap And also kinda lol too, but in a good wayLOL
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:13
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
"Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such " You managed to prove the essence of the topic titleClapDisapprove
I just looked through the list of some of the prog metal bands, and there is Protest The Hero, one of the more well known Prog/Extreme Tech metal bands. And guess what? They're from the USA
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:18
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
What band are you talking about Mr. 87? Let me take note so that I can suggest its deletion from the archives after such a deep excellent analytical argument you have given us...
 
What is that band please?
 
 
 
 
Well I think you got it wrong Mr T.You could suggest the whole genre´s deletion instead (just joking)
But you could begin with Protest the Hero , and that may do itTongueTongue
 
Or you may suggest me some extreme bands that could co-exist with my Symphonic likings
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:23
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Or you may suggest me some extreme bands that could co-exist with my Symphonic likings


fair enough, Spiral Architect maybe, or Spastic Ink for high X-tech but still melodic

some may say Cynic, but I don't care for them or consider them tech


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by mithrandir mithrandir wrote:

Originally posted by avalanchemaster avalanchemaster wrote:

  I don't even like manowar,


a false, Thumbs%20Down


LOL.  your key phrase, eh?  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 21:40
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

  Besides [prog metal] its the only sub-genre to attract attention to prog since neo prog on the 80's. In fact, i was drawn back to prog because of prog metal. Since my father thinks that prog REALLY died on the 80's (he don't like Marilion, etc) i also thought that for some time, until i discovered it was not dead by prog metal.


your father is right. Names and labels can't recreate a whole scenario of space and time.

Prog metal is a subgenre of prog rock or from heavy metal? To these ears it is an offspring from the heavy metal nursery. And a not-so-heavy one.

My true problem with prog metal is: it doesn't sound metal enough to me. I'm not talking about growling or distortion as automatically putting a song in the metal box.

The only prog metal album I appreciate (from time to time, and that's the only one I cared to buy) is Savatage's "The wake of Magellan". Listening to PoS and DT didn't click any light on me.

i understand why the young ones can make so obviously immature complaints like questioning DT's position in the "scene" (sic) and PA's popularity system (the ranking). Very few people think in early baroque masters when listening to Bach. but there's a big distinction here: while Bach was a God walking among us, creating music to be listened, studied and admired for any number of generations you could think, I don't know any prog metal album that can beat in any criterium any band from the "second league" of the seventies (I know the memebership on this "league" can float as long as you like the band or not, but let me quote some I have seen mentioned to this group in my years in PA: Gentle Giant, Camel, Caravan, Hatfield & the North, Le Orme, Renaissance, to say the most famous.

PS: I believe I'm not an "old" one. Born in the 70's (1974) but grown in the f##king 80's, when only NWOBHM and thrash bands helped me to survive.
Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 22:57
Originally posted by moodyxadi moodyxadi wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

  Besides [prog metal] its the only sub-genre to attract attention to prog since neo prog on the 80's. In fact, i was drawn back to prog because of prog metal. Since my father thinks that prog REALLY died on the 80's (he don't like Marilion, etc) i also thought that for some time, until i discovered it was not dead by prog metal.


your father is right. Names and labels can't recreate a whole scenario of space and time.
Prog as a genre dissapeared... progressive-rock and music  as a concept and broader genre I think is still with us.

Prog metal is a subgenre of prog rock or from heavy metal? To these ears it is an offspring from the heavy metal nursery. And a not-so-heavy one. I think it's a subgenre of metal but in the end metal is an offspring of rock... and progressive-metal, being progressive music , fits in a site where progressive rock and related genres exist... I don't see anything much more progressive-ROCK about Kraftwerk than about progressive-metal bands. I think is a subgenre of both.

My true problem with prog metal is: it doesn't sound metal enough to me. I'm not talking about growling or distortion as automatically putting a song in the metal box.

The only prog metal album I appreciate (from time to time, and that's the only one I cared to buy) is Savatage's "The wake of Magellan". Listening to PoS and DT didn't click any light on me.

i understand why the young ones can make so obviously immature complaints like questioning DT's position in the "scene" (sic) and PA's popularity system (the ranking). The same immature comments have been done about other bands in other genres. It's just that as the metal audience tends to be younger, it happens more. Also, if we have such an inmature thing as a ranking for music, then immaturity breeds immaturity. Very few people think in early baroque masters when listening to Bach. but there's a big distinction here: while Bach was a God walking among uswithout the religious overtones of what you said, I wholeheartedly agree... the Greatest of them all..., creating music to be listened, studied and admired for any number of generations you could think, I don't know any prog metal album that can beat in any criterium any band from the "second league" of the seventies (I know the memebership on this "league" can float as long as you like the band or not, but let me quote some I have seen mentioned to this group in my years in PA: Gentle Giant, Camel, Caravan, Hatfield & the North, Le Orme, Renaissance, to say the most famous.The problem is taste and also competition. While we are all sure about the existence of the former, therefore the probability that some people will prefer metal, I can't agree in the existence of the latter, where a band has to "beat" another band in musical criteria. I know what you mean, and from your perspective it's correct. From mine, I'll take my DT over Gentle Giant any day... and by the way, I'd pick Bach over both of them... 

PS: I believe I'm not an "old" one. Born in the 70's (1974) but grown in the f##king 80's, when only NWOBHM and thrash bands helped me to survive.I was born 4 years later so if you're old, I'm not much younger...Tongue

 

 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 23:06
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Im listening to the lastly submitted samples on the archives,  and "to my surprise" I found out that they (mostly)were all metal-based.I listened to almost 40 tracks and I cant see what the fuss is all about.It sounds like straightforward metal to me.Probably they are considered prog becouse they are mostly Scandinavian and they talk about Valhalla or such (no offense)
I think that metal has enough merit to be considered as "prog related" but it does not deserve to be a "pure" category.
 
They are not even Close to Prog´s Edge.
 
What band are you talking about Mr. 87? Let me take note so that I can suggest its deletion from the archives after such a deep excellent analytical argument you have given us...
 
What is that band please?
 
 
 
 
Well I think you got it wrong Mr T.You could suggest the whole genre´s deletion instead (just joking)
But you could begin with Protest the Hero , and that may do itTongueTongue
 
Or you may suggest me some extreme bands that could co-exist with my Symphonic likings
 
No... I didn't got it wrong. You don't like metal, you made posts in this thread making that clear. Now you said you heard 40 samples and, for your "surprise", it's all metal based. Well, sorry but  a) symphonic rock still exists but not in the amount as metal which thrives, so unless we re-add Yes and Genesis, probably more suggested bands will be metal; b) what people submit is not the same as what will be on PA... there is a process for that...
Then you said you were talking about Protest the Hero, which happens to be canadian, but you said mostly because they're "scandinavian and sing about Valhalla". Well... of the last additions I remember in metal, not many were swedish, and also, not mmany sing about the Valhalla. I know you were not saying that literally, you were just dismissing the genre, which is your right, but maybe you can pick another thread to do it or maybe you can even create a thread called "Take metal out of PA".
Sorry it this sounds harsh but I hope you appreciate what I say. About bands that could co-exist with your liking, well, how would I, or anybody else than you, know? Experiment! Research and you will find something, and if not, you won't have lost anything.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2008 at 23:19
I do not think it is warranted to write metal off entirely as some do, as there are scores and leagues of various sub-genre layers with which to explore to find almost any style combo possible.....I do not see limits in metal (although you do tend to be able to separate the few leaders from the numerous followers), although at times listening to only one style can be limiting....

Edited by avalanchemaster - May 07 2008 at 23:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 03:04
With very few exceptions (Fantomas, John Zorn and Spastic Ink spring to mind), Prog Metal lives within the confines (read limits) of metal - and that's why Classic Proggers can find it hard to take.
 
While PM fans often discuss "complexities", they are usually referring to theory and execution techniques rather than genuine complexity on form of compositions, such as existed in the "Classic" Prog bands.
 
I'm not saying one form of music is better than another - that's taste.
 
BUT
 
If you compare, say, Gentle Giant to Dream Theater (as T did above), then you'll note constant reference to and development of ancient Classical forms combined with extensive improvisation and spontaneity common to jazz.
 
Given that Metal is riff-based, it's extremely difficult for it, as a category of music, to achieve this level of musicality - the spontaneity is necessarily taken down several notches by the reliance on riffs - and this is something Dream Theater have never achieved, while the bands I mentioned above all have that in common - but (Spastic Ink apart) without managing to develop the longer complex forms of Classic Prog.
 
This is still not to say one is necessarily better than the other - but I do know where my preference lies Wink


Edited by Certif1ed - May 08 2008 at 03:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2008 at 03:33
^You can say that Gentle Giant is better for a person that looks for genuine complexity and not just execution techniques. That's pretty close to saying one is better than the other, atleast on a progforum.
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