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Dr. Occulator 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 628
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 Topic: A Problem with music reviews
Posted: March 09 2006 at 09:38 |
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This purpose of this post is NOT to offend anyone but I felt the need to write it.
It is becoming increasingly aggravating and annoying trying to decifer the meaning in
many music reviews which are posted.
I am not singling out any one particular reviewer but the problem appears to be the
lack of knowledge to structure a cohesive sentence when writing in the English language.
I understand that members come from all areas of the globe and that English is not always
their spoken tongue. However if someone reviews an album and it sounds like the words
in the sentence were thrown up in the air and presented as they lay in a jigsaw puzzle that
makes no sense, then the result defeats the purpose of trying to have someone understand
what merits the album may have.
Some questions I have are
'Are the reviews proof-read by anyone before being posted?
Is a spellcheck performed by reviewer or site administrator before posting?
(although at times the problem is not spelling but sentence structure and cohesion)
Perhaps some reviewers would prefer to post in their own native language and
at least those who can read that language would be able to understand the review.
I think some attention should be paid to this problem because it appears it is not
an isolated one but a more prevalent occurance than is acceptable.
I would think that some review on the guidelines to posting could only help
what is a very valuable resource to the Prog music lover.
With sincere regards
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 09:51 |
This comes up from time to time Dr. O
I believe the reviews you are referring to are the ones where an online translator has been used. The site guidelines say all reviews must be in English. The site owners have decided on this, and no exceptions will be made.
We must therefore accept that people whose first language is not English will find it more difficult to write in natural English. Please remember though that this site is not a professional one, it is for people who care about the music. The policy is therefore to be as inclusive as possible with such reviews. If a review is understandable, even if it is requires a bit of effort on the part of the reader, it stays. If it comes out as unintelligible, it goes.
Every review is checked, and assessed for compliance with the guidelines. Those guidelines indicate that online translators are best avoided, but we do not ban the use of them outright.
Bear in mind that just because a review appears on the home page, that does not mean it will remain on the site.
(By the way, there are also guidelines on where to start threads )
Edited by Easy Livin
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 14:37 |
I agree totally.  However, the remedy would be to start 90% of the population back in the 3rd grade of their elementary school and start with basic grammar. And that is the problem. What I see here in the feeble attempts to put together a cohesive, understandable sentence in a review is representative of the decline of language in general. In another generation the average review may look like this. "Tul R gud!"
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 14:56 |
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I find it moderately annoying as well, but I also feel the need to call for a bit of tolerance, and yes, empathy.
Using a popular web-based translator, I input the following sentence:
"Genesis' 'Supper's Ready' is a masterpiece of epic proportions."
Translating from English to Spanish, here was the result:
"Cena de las génesis la "lista" es una obra maestra de proporciones
épicas."
Translating that back into English, here was the result:
"Supper of the génesis the "list" is a masterpiece of épicas
proportions."
Im not sure how many languages you're fluent in, but as you can see, online translators have quite a ways to go.
Edited by Empathy
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Pure Brilliance:
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20029
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 15:31 |
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Empathy is right - most of the reviews which Dr Occulator is probably referring to have been through these online translators. Certainly braindamage's do and it looks like mandrakeroot's do as well. As empathy has demonstrated, they can certainly produce some garbage!
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 15:41 |
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Much empathy I have for the guy in Finland or Cairo struggling with the english language. But I'm talking about the office manager in Cleveland who doesn't know what a semicolon is.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Empathy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1864
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 15:59 |
Well, there is that.
I'm off to start another "Are proggers pretentious?" poll! 
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Pure Brilliance:
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Dr. Occulator
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 628
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 16:05 |
 Empathy wrote:
Well, there is that.
I'm off to start another "Are proggers pretentious?" poll!
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Wat wood effer giv U; that I D ah???????????
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 17:15 |
Proggers arent' pretentious, just convinced!
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: March 09 2006 at 17:54 |
chopper wrote:
Empathy is right - most of the reviews which Dr Occulator is probably referring to have been through these online translators. Certainly braindamage's do and it looks like mandrakeroot's do as well. As empathy has demonstrated, they can certainly produce some garbage! |
Chopper, be sure that the reviews moderators are aware about this issue and we discuss it permanently thru PM, mails and forum threads. Some reviews are deleted before reaching the home page, others remain only time to be noted and erased. We also, sometimes, edit some of them or provide translations (from "English" to English and/or from another language to English). 
But we thank you all that are helping us and the site to improve our reviews and continue to be more and more a trustful source for the progressive scene. 
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Guigo
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phobos
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: March 14 2006 at 19:12 |
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I'd bet that there are probably people involved in this site who are multi-lingual and can translate reviews that would be submitted in the native language of the respective members. Maybe?
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bluetailfly
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1383
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Posted: March 14 2006 at 19:22 |
Look, if by chance you are referring to MANDRAKEROOT, I for one very much enjoy reading his/her reviews. I can figure out what he/she's getting at and he/she makes good and insightful points, and phrases them in a way that is priceless.
As long as the good intention is there and a good faith effort is made to write them, I say let them stand.
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: March 14 2006 at 19:51 |
phobos wrote:
I'd bet that there are probably people involved in this site who are multi-lingual and can translate reviews that would be submitted in the native language of the respective members. Maybe? |
Phobos, normally reviews written in other language than English are shown at the "Inappropriate reviews" forum. If the review is interesting soon appears a good soul to provide the translation and the information is preserved.
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Guigo
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phobos
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: March 17 2006 at 13:55 |
bluetailfly wrote:
Look, if by chance you are referring to MANDRAKEROOT, I for one very much enjoy reading his/her reviews. I can figure out what he/she's getting at and he/she makes good and insightful points, and phrases them in a way that is priceless.
As long as the good intention is there and a good faith effort is made to write them, I say let them stand.
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That's your opinion and perhaps you make a point, but I feel it neccesary to post today's review of an ELP release, not out of spite or ill will but just to show how unintelligible these can be:
"Certainly that like gift of Christmas the readers of NME are not able to have better. I do not know how many copies in more with respect the usual one were sold in more but I should say that this is an excellent gift.
Certainly "Brain Salad Surgery" is a piece aged well! I believe that in the homonymous album there it was well. "Excerpts From Brain Salad Surgery" is instead a mix that is not aged well...
But thing want to do us, for what farewell... It stays, still today, a good tape for manipulation exercises.
Like gift is a gift that would do happy everything. "
Yes, I understand what the reviewer is saying to a certain extent... but give me a break! This isn't really a usefull review for anybody actually interested in the subject matter (not the charming way in which the reviewer struggles with an online translator.) Again, I have no malice towards the reviewer/s in question but as a newcomer to this site I am really getting a bad impresssion. Don't get me wrong, there are a wealth of wonderfully written reviews here, but reviews such as this just dilute that which is useful and represent proagarchives poorly.
Edited by phobos
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phobos
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: March 17 2006 at 13:56 |
Atkingani wrote:
phobos wrote:
I'd bet that there are probably people involved in this site who are multi-lingual and can translate reviews that would be submitted in the native language of the respective members. Maybe? |
Phobos, normally reviews written in other language than English are shown at the "Inappropriate reviews" forum. If the review is interesting soon appears a good soul to provide the translation and the information is preserved.
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Thanks for explaining Atkingani. I'm glad to hear that. Although it doesn't solve the larger problem, I'm glad that this is taking place.
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: March 17 2006 at 17:47 |
Thanks Phobos for your friendly words.
Talking about that particular review made today by Mandrakeroot. If you check you'll see that's the first and only review until now referring to the release; any information about any album is always welcome. The review isn't great but it's the only one we have with a minimum clue about that work; after receiving more reviews we can re-evaluate the first review to see what to do with it; in general we mail the reviewer asking him to improve his/her job.
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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phobos
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: March 17 2006 at 18:31 |
Atkingani wrote:
Thanks Phobos for your friendly words.
Talking about that particular review made today by Mandrakeroot. If you check you'll see that's the first and only review until now referring to the release; any information about any album is always welcome. The review isn't great but it's the only one we have with a minimum clue about that work; after receiving more reviews we can re-evaluate the first review to see what to do with it; in general we mail the reviewer asking him to improve his/her job.
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Hmmm... I'm pretty well satisfied by that responce and I hope other members reading this are as well. Thanks.
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Dr. Occulator
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 628
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Posted: April 17 2008 at 17:39 |
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Wow! I just checked this post and it the intervening time from March, 2006, I have to say that the quality of understandable reviews has improved greatly. I think this has to do with the realization that people whose native tongue is not necessarily English have sincerely tried write reviews in English that actually make literary sense and that we English speaking & writing folk have become less pretentious & concerned with proper diction and presentation than the overall emotional impact of the review.
Just an observation anyway.
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: April 17 2008 at 22:40 |
Empathy wrote:
I find it moderately annoying as well, but I also feel the need to call for a bit of tolerance, and yes, empathy.
Using a popular web-based translator, I input the following sentence:
"Genesis' 'Supper's Ready' is a masterpiece of epic proportions."
Translating from English to Spanish, here was the result:
"Cena de las génesis la "lista" es una obra maestra de proporciones
épicas."
Translating that back into English, here was the result:
"Supper of the génesis the "list" is a masterpiece of épicas
proportions."
Im not sure how many languages you're fluent in, but as you can see, online translators have quite a ways to go.
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Supper's Ready makes sense ?
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3596
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Posted: April 17 2008 at 22:48 |
What about those written by native english speakers (or rather writers) that don't make sense ? Those written by PA members who have no idea how to express the grandeur and magnificance of Klaatu's debut, or Ange's Emile Jacotey ? Can we get them to write in a more clear manner so they can make clear their hidden love for these and other meisterworks ? Oh, and sometimes, in reviews , as in lyrics, a supposedly inept wording due to non-english native language hits the sweet spot and conveys more than one would expect ( I once read that in a Golden Earring review). Anyway, next we'll have people insisting on well written & brief posts to PA threads. And you know what that will lead to - my having to post many separate short posts.
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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A Problem with music reviews