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Atavachron 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65606
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 Posted: March 16 2008 at 15:41 |
 ES335 wrote:
The thing about this is that this problem could have been pretty easily foreseen. Maybe next time you should float the idea and get some fedback rather than asking for lists right off the bat. Despite the subtle pressure from a site rep to stick to your/the site's guns, those who are frustrated by the rules have a legitimate complaint: what good is a list of great symphonic albums if you can't submit great symphonic albums to the list? The solution is of course obvious: don't change the rules, change the name of the list!
Call this:
THE ULTIMATE LIST OF ALBUMS BY BANDS THAT PROGARCHIVES.COM CLASSIFIES AS SYMPHONIC, NEO-SYMPHONIC OR ITALIAN SYMPHONIC PROG
That way no one can complain because the list will be what it says it is.
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float an idea? it was simply an invitation for members to list their favorite albums from PA Symph bands, not whether we should offer people health insurance
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 16:06 |
Well ES335, Neo and Symphonic have a very close relation and Italian Symphonic is Symphonic, so it's an interesting experiment to talk about bands that are related,. despite not being formally in the same sub-genre.
Iván
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166183
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 22:07 |
I have to agree about sticking to the original rules, especially since I've made my list, free of the albums that should be included but aren't.
1. Marillion - Clutching At Straws
2. Genesis - Foxtrot
3. Discipline - Unfolded Like Staircase
4. After Crying - Struggle For Life
5. Steve Hackett - To Watch The Storms
6. Marillion - Script For A Jester's Tear
7. UK - UK
8. PFM - L'isola Di Niente
9. Arena - The Visitor
10. Echolyn - Suffocating The Bloom
11. Spock's Beard - The Light
12. Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down...
13. Marillion - Fugazi
14. Anglagard - Hybris
15. After Crying - De Profundis
16. IQ - The Wake
17. Steve Hackett - Spectral Morning
18. Camel - Moonmaddess
19. Goblin - Roller
20. Chris Squire - Fish Out Of Water
21. Genesis - Trespass
22. Camel - Rain Dances
24. Echolyn - The End Is Beautiful
25. Maxophone - Maxophone
26. ELP - ELP
27. IQ - Dark Matter
28. Steve Hackett - Wild Orchids
29. Glass Hammer - Lex Rex
30. Spock's Beard - The Kindness Of Strangers
31. Camel - The Snowgoose
32. Museo Rosenbach - Zarathustra
33. Genesis - A Trick Of The Tail
34. Yes - Fragile
35. Harmonium - Si On Avait...
36. Moon Safari - A Doorway To Summer
37. Deluge Grander - August In The Urals
38. Shylock - Ile De Fievre
39. Yes - Relayer
40. Arena - Pride
41. Transatlantic - Bridge Across Forever
42. Pendragon - The Masquerade Overture
43. K2 - Book Of The Dead
44. Banco... - Darwin!
45. Twelfth Night - Fact And Fiction
46. Fish - Vigil In A Wilderness Of Mirrors
47. Le Orme - Felona E Sorona
48. Puppet Show - The Tale Of Woe
49. RAK - Lepidoptera
50. The Flower Kings - Unfold The Future
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 22:10 |
^ Damn fine 
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 <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 22:54 |
Atavachron wrote:
ES335 wrote:
The thing about this is that this problem could have been pretty easily foreseen. Maybe next time you should float the idea and get some fedback rather than asking for lists right off the bat. Despite the subtle pressure from a site rep to stick to your/the site's guns, those who are frustrated by the rules have a legitimate complaint: what good is a list of great symphonic albums if you can't submit great symphonic albums to the list? The solution is of course obvious: don't change the rules, change the name of the list!
Call this:
THE ULTIMATE LIST OF ALBUMS BY BANDS THAT PROGARCHIVES.COM CLASSIFIES AS SYMPHONIC, NEO-SYMPHONIC OR ITALIAN SYMPHONIC PROG
That way no one can complain because the list will be what it says it is.
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float an idea? it was simply an invitation for members to list their favorite albums from PA Symph bands, not whether we should offer people health insurance
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No. It was an invitation to list their favorite albums with lots of rules. The rules have generated perhaps needless controversy. In the future it might be possible to prevent the controversy. Hence my suggestion.
I'm not suggesting that controversy is inherently bad by any means. Frequently it leads to the most interesting discussions. However, not being able to submit ITCOTKC to a list of great symphonic prog albums but being able to submit 80's Genesis isn't interesting, just intllectually frustrating. Overall this site is great, but a frequent complaint is there is too much emphasis on mindless polls and lists. Wouldn't it be more in the spirit of the site to allow some leeway for people to think?
you seem to have an interest in protecting or at least defending PA's classification system. I have no problem with the overall system used on this site. From a usability standpoint, it makes more sense when organizing the information to operate on a general assumption that artists tend to work within a genre.
That general assumption doesn't seem to make sense for this undertaking, unless moreitthanyou is using a program to tally the results that won't be able to distinguish if a crank is submitting albums that clearly bear no resemblance to the symphonic style. Assuming no cranks, we're probably just talking about a handful of albums that have elements of symphonic combined with elements of eclectic or heavy prog. It seems to me, and others, that the list would be more accurate and interesting, without placing an undue burden on the project's creator, if people were able to exercise reasonable judgement.
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65606
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 23:01 |
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I have an interest in nothing, and this has nothing to do with categories.. it's about respecting the parameters of the thread starter-- do you want some mug to come on some nice little thread of yours and say "No, no...*THIS* is how you should do it" This thread ain't a democracy. it's a private thread open to all members
..what would any list, game or poll be without guidlines?
now, enough arguing and on with favorite PA Symph albums!
Edited by Atavachron - March 16 2008 at 23:07
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 23:28 |
ES335 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
ES335 wrote:
The thing about this is that this problem could have been pretty easily foreseen. Maybe next time you should float the idea and get some fedback rather than asking for lists right off the bat. Despite the subtle pressure from a site rep to stick to your/the site's guns, those who are frustrated by the rules have a legitimate complaint: what good is a list of great symphonic albums if you can't submit great symphonic albums to the list? The solution is of course obvious: don't change the rules, change the name of the list!
Call this:
THE ULTIMATE LIST OF ALBUMS BY BANDS THAT PROGARCHIVES.COM CLASSIFIES AS SYMPHONIC, NEO-SYMPHONIC OR ITALIAN SYMPHONIC PROG
That way no one can complain because the list will be what it says it is.
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float an idea? it was simply an invitation for members to list their favorite albums from PA Symph bands, not whether we should offer people health insurance
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No. It was an invitation to list their favorite albums with lots of rules. The rules have generated perhaps needless controversy. In the future it might be possible to prevent the controversy. Hence my suggestion.
You can say that part about needless controversy again. This would give me quite the headache if I didn't already have a cold. I didn't go that far in to naming the contest that specifically because I assumed that people would be willing to play by the rules. Since this is not exactly the case, I made it so that if you're not going to play by the rules, you have to do extra work in convincing me that your assumption as to the album's genre is feasible.
I'm not suggesting that controversy is inherently bad by any means. Frequently it leads to the most interesting discussions. However, not being able to submit ITCOTKC to a list of great symphonic prog albums but being able to submit 80's Genesis isn't interesting, just intllectually frustrating. Overall this site is great, but a frequent complaint is there is too much emphasis on mindless polls and lists. Wouldn't it be more in the spirit of the site to allow some leeway for people to think?
That may be true, but I don't believe I could have granted more leeway than with my last contest. After that, there was a demand for more specified contests and I happily obliged.
you seem to have an interest in protecting or at least defending PA's classification system. I have no problem with the overall system used on this site. From a usability standpoint, it makes more sense when organizing the information to operate on a general assumption that artists tend to work within a genre.
I just thought it would be easiest and most fair. I didn't want people arguing about what is symphonic and what is not. I also didn't want people complaining at the end that their favorite "symphonic" album outside the three genres was too low because people followed the site's ruling and listed accordingly.
That general assumption doesn't seem to make sense for this undertaking, unless moreitthanyou is using a program to tally the results that won't be able to distinguish if a crank is submitting albums that clearly bear no resemblance to the symphonic style. Assuming no cranks, we're probably just talking about a handful of albums that have elements of symphonic combined with elements of eclectic or heavy prog. It seems to me, and others, that the list would be more accurate and interesting, without placing an undue burden on the project's creator, if people were able to exercise reasonable judgment
The program I use is Microsoft Excel and my time and effort. Hopefully I don't let any cranks get through. I have decided to allow everyone to exercise what they believe is reasonable judgment given my approval. If you're going to add a non-symphonic album to a symphonic list, you better have some very good reason for doing so.
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I hope this helps explain my side. Anyway, don't fight, list! 
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<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 23:40 |
Atavachron wrote:
do you want some mug to come on some nice little thread of yours and say "No, no...*THIS* is how you should do it" |
This has in fact happened, more than once (not necessarily here, I post and have posted on several forums devoted to many subjects). In many cases, I was presented with new ideas allowed me to improve my endevour.
Atavachron wrote:
..what would any list, game or poll be without guidlines? |
Lists, games and polls are all different, and I would answer differently for each one, so I'll ignore the broader question since it isn't relevant to the issue at hand. A list of great symphonic albums that restricts you from submitting great symphonic albums would be incomplete.
I hope you find these answers adequate. Should you have more questions, feel free to contact me via private message.
Atavachron wrote:
now, enough arguing and on with favorite PA Symph albums! |
Since the rules have been changed (a few days ago, to my chagrin, I should have gone back and checked. Alas and alack! Ah well, this intellectual jousting has been refreshing) to allow listers to make a case for albums such as ITCOTCK, I agree.
[/QUOTE]
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 16 2008 at 23:44 |
moreitsythanyou wrote:
ES335 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
ES335 wrote:
The thing about this is that this problem could have been pretty easily foreseen. Maybe next time you should float the idea and get some fedback rather than asking for lists right off the bat. Despite the subtle pressure from a site rep to stick to your/the site's guns, those who are frustrated by the rules have a legitimate complaint: what good is a list of great symphonic albums if you can't submit great symphonic albums to the list? The solution is of course obvious: don't change the rules, change the name of the list!
Call this:
THE ULTIMATE LIST OF ALBUMS BY BANDS THAT PROGARCHIVES.COM CLASSIFIES AS SYMPHONIC, NEO-SYMPHONIC OR ITALIAN SYMPHONIC PROG
That way no one can complain because the list will be what it says it is.
|
float an idea? it was simply an invitation for members to list their favorite albums from PA Symph bands, not whether we should offer people health insurance
|
No. It was an invitation to list their favorite albums with lots of rules. The rules have generated perhaps needless controversy. In the future it might be possible to prevent the controversy. Hence my suggestion.
You can say that part about needless controversy again. This would give me quite the headache if I didn't already have a cold. I didn't go that far in to naming the contest that specifically because I assumed that people would be willing to play by the rules. Since this is not exactly the case, I made it so that if you're not going to play by the rules, you have to do extra work in convincing me that your assumption as to the album's genre is feasible.
I'm not suggesting that controversy is inherently bad by any means. Frequently it leads to the most interesting discussions. However, not being able to submit ITCOTKC to a list of great symphonic prog albums but being able to submit 80's Genesis isn't interesting, just intllectually frustrating. Overall this site is great, but a frequent complaint is there is too much emphasis on mindless polls and lists. Wouldn't it be more in the spirit of the site to allow some leeway for people to think?
That may be true, but I don't believe I could have granted more leeway than with my last contest. After that, there was a demand for more specified contests and I happily obliged.
you seem to have an interest in protecting or at least defending PA's classification system. I have no problem with the overall system used on this site. From a usability standpoint, it makes more sense when organizing the information to operate on a general assumption that artists tend to work within a genre. I just thought it would be easiest and most fair. I didn't want people arguing about what is symphonic and what is not. I also didn't want people complaining at the end that their favorite "symphonic" album outside the three genres was too low because people followed the site's ruling and listed accordingly.
That general assumption doesn't seem to make sense for this undertaking, unless moreitthanyou is using a program to tally the results that won't be able to distinguish if a crank is submitting albums that clearly bear no resemblance to the symphonic style. Assuming no cranks, we're probably just talking about a handful of albums that have elements of symphonic combined with elements of eclectic or heavy prog. It seems to me, and others, that the list would be more accurate and interesting, without placing an undue burden on the project's creator, if people were able to exercise reasonable judgment
The program I use is Microsoft Excel and my time and effort. Hopefully I don't let any cranks get through. I have decided to allow everyone to exercise what they believe is reasonable judgment given my approval. If you're going to add a non-symphonic album to a symphonic list, you better have some very good reason for doing so.
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I hope this helps explain my side. Anyway, don't fight, list!
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I agree that the changes to the list criteria make this a much better situation. As I said to Atavachron, I think the way the site organizes the information is good, but it makes for bad rules in a situation like this, early KC being the prime example. Thank you for keeping an open mind, and re-imaging the rules in such a way that should make this a truly interesting project.
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 17 2008 at 00:36 |
Here's my list.
1) Yes Tales From Topographic Ocean
2)Yes Close to that Edge
3) ELP Tarkus
4) Yes Relayer
5) King Crimson In the Court of the Crimson King (widely regarded as the album that started it all, follows a symph structre and ealsa with symph themes. Trippy cover too)
6) The Flower KIngs Adam and Eve
7) Transatlantc SMPTe
8)PFM Per Un Amico
9) Yes Magnification
10)The Yes Album
11) Fragile
12) Yes Going For the One
13) The Flower Kings The Sum of No Evil
14) The Beatles Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (the album that started it all for the album that started it all)
15) Yes Going FOr the One
16) Anglagard Hybrid
17) Camel The Snow Goose
18) Harmonium All them words in Frenh
19)ELP Brain Salad Surgery
20) Flower Kings The Sum of No Evil
21) ELP Pictures at an Exhibiion
22) ELP Debut
23) Jon Anderson Olias of Sunhillow
24) Rick Wakeman Journey to the Centre of the Earth
25) Spocks's Beard V
26) Rush Caress of Steel
27 Rush 2112
28) Rush A Farewell to Kings
29) Rush Hemispheres (all of these Rush albums contain epics with symphonic structure and fantasy lyrics typical of the genre. Could argue that they are "Heavy Symphonic Prog")
That's it for now from this twisted hombre. But I come from the land of Lizards and the lizards they are dead
Edited by ES335 - March 17 2008 at 21:22
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: March 17 2008 at 14:33 |
You're going to have to be much more persuasive than that.  Oh and please no ties. You have multiple spots, use them.
Edited by moreitsythanyou - March 17 2008 at 14:33
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<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 17 2008 at 21:15 |
Crikey. I really have to get some kind of breathalyzer hooked up to my laptop so I can't post after my Ambien kicks in. I remember the post at 23:44, but have no recollection of compiling that list. Scary stuff that Ambien. Some day I'm going to wake up in the next county.
Not sure what I need to convince you of, other than the Sgt. Pepper comment, which makes about as much sense to me now as it does to you. I'll change the argument to it's the album that started it all for the album that started it all. I'll redo the Rush albums, but the argument is the same for all of them. I'll add Caress of Steel too.
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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ES335
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 168
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Posted: March 17 2008 at 21:27 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Well ES335, Neo and Symphonic have a very close relation and Italian Symphonic is Symphonic, so it's an interesting experiment to talk about bands that are related,. despite not being formally in the same sub-genre.
Iván
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I think you misunderstood. I have no problem with comparing these three genres. I simply thought some allowance should be made to include albums that are symphonic by bands that are classified otherwise.
My apologies to moreitsthanyou if I made you feel hounded. I do appreciate the work you do on these lists. It's just that when you call it the "Ultimate" list, and the thread is likely to get stickied, some care should be taken to include all symphonic music.
Can't wait for the psyche/space list!
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Bible-thumping heavyweight evangelistic boxing kangaroo
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: March 18 2008 at 06:25 |
My list is glaringly sparse because I haven't been able to find a number of classics such as Hybris, If we needed a 5th season and lots of Italian, but here's my list of the stuff I actually know.
1. The Lamb
2. Selling England
3. Tresspass
4. Foxtrot
5. In the Court of the Crimson King
6. Misplaced Childhood
7. Voyage of the Acolyte
8. Tarkus
9. Marbles
10. Bay of Kings Steve Hackett not symponic not even prog but awesome
11. Nursery Crime
12. Dreams of Men - Pallas
13. Brain Salad Surgery
14. Script for a Jesters Tear
15. Spectral Mornings- Steve Hackett
16. Masqurade Overture - Pendragon
17. Trilogy - ELP
18. Clutching at Straws - Marillion
19. Mirage - Camel
20. Trick of the Tail - Genesis
21. Defector - Steve Hackett
22. Pictures at an Exibition - ELP
23. Leftoverture - Kansas
24. UK - UK
25. Night - Gazpacho
26. Afraid of Sunlight
27. Wind and Wuthering - Genesis
28. Moonmadness - Camel
29. Season's End - Marillion
30. ELP - ELP
31. Discipline - Unfold Like Staircase
32. the Snow Goose - Camel
33. Into the Night - Satellite
34. Duke - Genesis
35. The Cross and the Crucible - Pallas
36. The Visitor - Arena
37. Fugazi - Marillion
38. Momentum - Steve Hackett
Thanks to Moreitsy for all the work and I didn't mean to stir the pot earlier with my post, I just stuck to the rules which allowed me to get some Hackett albums in that don't belong! 
Edited by kenmartree - March 18 2008 at 06:26
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: March 19 2008 at 06:17 |
Regardless of my votes and whether or not symphonic album in PA my "TOP 10" list is this:
1. BIRDS OF FIRE (Mahavishnu Orchestra)
2. HOCUS POCUS: THE BEST OF FOCUS (Focus)
3. MUSIC INSPIRED BY THE SNOW GOOSE (Camel)
4. A SONG FOR ALL SEASONS (Renaissance)
5. ANTICO TEATRO DA CAMERA (Gianni D'Errico)
6. PAMPERED MENIAL (Pavlov's Dog)
7. ARGUS (Wishbone Ash)
8. BLOOD, SWEAT & TEARS (Blood, Sweat & Tears)
9. FORSE LE LUCCIOLE NON SI AMANO PIù (Locanda Delle Fate)
10. A CONCERT FOR THE PEOPLE (BERLIN) (Barclay James Harvest)
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timeprog
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2008
Location: Prog Island
Status: Offline
Points: 15
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Posted: March 19 2008 at 19:18 |
After a careful evaluation this is my "TOP 10 PA Symphonic" list:
1. "Antico Teatro Da Camera" (Gianni D'Errico)
2. "Moving Waves" (Focus)
3. "Tarkus" (ELP)
4. "Fragile" (Yes)
5. "Photos Of Ghosts" (PFM)
6. "L'Isola Di Niente" (PFM)
7. "Days Of Future Passed" (The Moody Blues)
8. "In The Land Of Grey And Pink" (Caravan)
9. "Snow Goose" (Camel)
10. "Collage" (Le Orme)
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moreitsythanyou
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
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Posted: March 20 2008 at 20:06 |
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These lists are good starts but need length and revision in accordance with the rules to be eligible
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<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
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timeprog
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2008
Location: Prog Island
Status: Offline
Points: 15
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 05:17 |
Mandrakeroot wrote:
Regardless of my votes and whether or not symphonic album in PA my "TOP 10" list is this:
1. BIRDS OF FIRE (Mahavishnu Orchestra)
2. HOCUS POCUS: THE BEST OF FOCUS (Focus)
3. MUSIC INSPIRED BY THE SNOW GOOSE (Camel)
4. A SONG FOR ALL SEASONS (Renaissance)
5. ANTICO TEATRO DA CAMERA (Gianni D'Errico)
6. PAMPERED MENIAL (Pavlov's Dog)
7. ARGUS (Wishbone Ash)
8. BLOOD, SWEAT & TEARS (Blood, Sweat & Tears)
9. FORSE LE LUCCIOLE NON SI AMANO PIù (Locanda Delle Fate)
10. A CONCERT FOR THE PEOPLE (BERLIN) (Barclay James Harvest) |
Excellent list of symphonic albums   !
This (and other...) list leads me to ask a question: Can be symphonic playing fusion, space rock, post rock or krautrock?
For my warning yes. And I believe that the examples are many!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65606
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 05:25 |
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I don't know what the problem understanding this list is but it's getting a bit silly... Symphonic albums on PA, not fusion or space or Kraut or anything else
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timeprog
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 13 2008
Location: Prog Island
Status: Offline
Points: 15
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Posted: March 21 2008 at 05:29 |
moreitsythanyou wrote:
These lists are good starts but need length and revision in accordance with the rules to be eligible |
It is considered that more than a music genre symphonic is an adjective that expresses a certain kind of musical construction of musical sentence on compositions and that allows a certain kind of excitement to come afloat.
So, in my opinion, 'Birds Of Fire' is no less symphonic of 'Argus' or 'Close To The Edge' of 'Sped Metal Simphony' (by Cacophony). In fact change the musical genre but not the symphonics elements.
In conclusion if there (even in prog) symphonic genre is true that symphonic album is not only the prerogative of symphonic prog.
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The Ultimate PA SYMPHONIC Album List
