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acheron 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 12 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 148
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 Topic: How does PA rank albums?
Posted: March 12 2008 at 02:31 |
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I always assumed it was a simple average of the votes ie. (# of 5 star votes x 5 + # of 4 star votes x 4 +...+ # of 1 star votes x 1) / total number of votes
but then i noticed on the review for the Black Sabbath reunion DVD that its 1.09 rating does not = (1 vote x 2 stars + 1 vote x 1 star) / 2 votes = 1.5 stars.
i also checked out that Jean Luc ponty album today and calculated ( 1 vote x 5 stars + 4 votes x 4stars+ 1 vote x 3 stars + 1 vote x 2 stars) / 7 total votes yields 3.71 stars
I also calculated the rating for a few albums with hundreds of votes and got the same value as the rank on PA so there has to be a weighting system for each star value such that the rank converges to a simple average as the sample size (number of votes) increases.
So then i decided to figure out these weights and found a lot of inconsistencies. For example: The band Maad has one album, and its rating is 3.09 stars. It has 1 4star vote and 1 3star vote. Now any other band on PA with 1 4star vote and 1 3star vote should have the same ranking right? well no, a lot of them don't, for example the band Kaamos' album 'deeds and talks' has 3.77 rating with 1 4star vote and 1 3star vote.
I solved like 30 linear systems of equations to get weight values for 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 star votes, and the values were not consistent at all.
So what gives??? how am I supposed to trust these ratings when they are inconsistent???
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Ricochet
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 27 2005
Location: Nauru
Status: Offline
Points: 46301
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 02:52 |
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The "technicians" here can give the best answer, but what I know myself is that, instead of the very simple average, PA follows an algorithm by which normal reviews are counted as 1, Prog Reviewers' reviews are counted as 3 and Special Collaborators' reviews as 10 (or is it the rates without ratings that are 1, the normal reviews that are 3 and the PR/SC that are 10?).
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 09:24 |
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The answer is, don't trust ratings. Trust what you like.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
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Points: 5502
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 12:04 |
In general my opinion weighs heavier than others opinions, so there you have it.
from my understanding a rating without a review weighs less than a rating with a review, and collaborators ratings weigh a little more also, which may seem a bit unfair, but that's because life isn't fair.
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 20:23 |
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Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 20:32 |
 Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap. |
I somewhat agree with that, personally I would only distinguish between ratings with or without review.
the fact that Collab reviews are displayed at the top of the list of reviews is distinguishing enough, certainly since most people go by reviews rather than ratings anyway.
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 20:33 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap.
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That's not true. In most cases there aren't near as many collab reviews as regular members. The weighting is heavier, but not to the point where other reviews have no significance.My review of "Foxtrot" would hardly effect the rating at all. Besides, you review albums because you want to, not for the rating.
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 20:42 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap.
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if you are worried about all that crap... and not what you actually have to SAY about the album.. your review would have been worthless anyway don't you think......
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7865
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:11 |
tuxon wrote:
...collaborators ratings weigh a little more also, which may seem a bit unfair, but that's because life isn't fair. |
Maybe the rool, invented by some persons, is unfair? Why life is guilty and why the rool can't be changed? It's not a USA constitution.
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
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Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:17 |
seeing how promotions to Prog Reviewer and Colabs is NOT a popularity contest.. but based on ...ahhhh.. your damn skills as a reviewer and your knowledge of prog. Silly me... reason enough they should... and DO... count more. If I had my way though... and have proposed it to empty auditoriums in the collab area  .. is eliminating ratings altogether. It is what is written that matters... not an arbitrary rating.. usually given with NO other thought given than to whether someone liked the album or not... and who really gives a sh*t about that. We want to know about the albums.. not whether some guy who none of us knows, likes it or not. bah.....
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:35 |
Deathrabbit wrote:
Yea collabs are weighted so much it discourages others from writing reviews. I don't even bother most of the time because I know my opinion wont be counted for crap. |
Why you make the review?
- To be counted?
- To place an album in N° 1?
- Or because you like to share what you feel about the album?
In my casw, I can't care less for rankings, never did and never will, if SEBTP or CTTE or Thick as a Brick are in first place...I don't give a damn.
I don't like, SEBTP as much as any Gabriel era Genesis, I don't like any Yes album as much as I like Gothic Impressions, but I know this won't change easilly because this albums are iconic and Gothic UImpressions not.
I wouldn't like Hybris more than how I already love this album if ot was in N° 1 or less if it was in N° 200.
Your review is posted in the front page in a determined moment as any reviewer or SC, and you are allowed to share your opinion as much as any Administrator in your review, if this is not enough, you have the forum, so how does this affect your review?.
Now, the algorythm is confidence issue, the Adms know the reviewers and SCs, so they trust in us, not because we are better, but because they know us, if you knew how much crap is deleted or how many attempts of manipulating the charts have been made (people writing with 5 or 6 IDs or people giving 0 to every top album and 5 stars only to one), you would also be careful.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 12 2008 at 22:38
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Soul Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:41 |
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Well, not to stir up the discussion again...that was some months ago and in another forum...but I think the current algorithm is not very good, certainly less then Mike's former algorithm, and it depreciates the number of reviews (with or w/o >200 words) far to much, and gives fictional scores to albums which are not much reviewed as a side effect.....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 22:57 |
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Soul Dreamer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 17 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 997
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake  , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think....
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To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica)
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micky
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:10 |
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think.... |
hahhaha.. are you sure about that Have you read most Genesis reviews
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: A˛ Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 5109
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:23 |
micky wrote:
Soul Dreamer wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
That's how 200 characters look...Do you believe it's too much to ask for a review about a whole album?
Iván
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Sorry, my mistake , I meant 200 characters... That review would be removed as "inappropriate" quite soon thow, I think.... |
hahhaha.. are you sure about that Have you read most Genesis reviews |
Please Micky. My Genesis reviews are much more objective.
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
I Love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel I love Peter Gabriel
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46833
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:28 |
hahhaha.... not bad.... most objecive Genesis review I've seen in a while 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 12 2008 at 23:56 |
Ricochet wrote:
The "technicians" here can give the best answer, but what I know myself is that, instead of the very simple average, PA follows an algorithm by which normal reviews are counted as 1, Prog Reviewers' reviews are counted as 3 and Special Collaborators' reviews as 10 (or is it the rates without ratings that are 1, the normal reviews that are 3 and the PR/SC that are 10?). |
There are other elements Rico:
- Ratings without reviews count only 1, because the level of trust is minimum, PA doesn't know if the reviewer has even heard the album.
- Members reviews weight 2.
- The number of reviews of the album also counts, because it's a statisticall rule that the more votes you got, the smaller the statistical desviation is.
And some more I don't know.
Iván
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 00:08 |
While I do think that the ratings may be slightly biased I really don't care, and while I wish it weren't so hard to notice non-collab reviews I try not to worry about it, all my reviews were born out of boredom anyhow.
The only thing that I find slightly annoying is that some collabs reviewers seem to have their positions for I don't know why, there ought to be a merit system for becoming a reviewer/collab rather than the arbitrary way that they are chosen now........ but I am content to stick to the forum
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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kenmartree
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2007
Location: oregon
Status: Offline
Points: 356
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Posted: March 13 2008 at 00:39 |
[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]Sorry Soul Dreamer, it's not 200 Words, it's 200 CHARACTERS:
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
I Love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear I love my teddy bear
Me and my teddy bear, we got no hair but we don't care. Me and my teddy bear we love to play and play. Cause they've taken the pain away Ok I did get to 200  and I love Peter Gabriel!
Edited by kenmartree - March 13 2008 at 00:42
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How does PA rank albums?
