Christian prog vs secular prog

King Crimson776 wrote: ghost_of_morphy wrote: ]Unless you are going to claim that Atheists believe that we can be saved, don't bother wasting your time telling me that I'm wrong. What are you talking about? I've already told you they don't believe in the concept of "being saved".

ghost_of_morphy wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: ghost_of_morphy wrote: ]Unless you are going to claim that Atheists believe that we can be saved, don't bother wasting your time telling me that I'm wrong. What are you talking about? I've already told you they don't believe in the concept of "being saved".   I'm not going to go into a blue print argument-fest like Ivan.  Just re-read the post.

This is silly, the post says nothing. It says that you think Atheists think that we don't "get saved" when really they just don't believe in anything. I don't know what else I would need to say.

btw, I hope there aren't any bad vibes, I like arguments like this. It's one of the more fun ones I've had in weeks on this website.

Edited by King Crimson776 - February 17 2008 at 00:05

King Crimson776 wrote: Not really a discussion I'm involved in, but a kid can be taught morals without brainwashing and religion. Sure, that'll keep them in line, but it's not healthy for the mind.

ghost_of_morphy wrote: Have you given any thought to the case of the Jews, who undeniably believe in God, yet have not been "saved" as Christians?

Wait, are you saying that Jews don't go to hell?
Read this, the fist paragraph where it describes the Religious man.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   You touched a good issue.SOCIALIZATION:   Even when it's not the reason why I would teach my kid Catholicism, it's a good point.

Ivan, I understand your desire to have your kid have morals that are based in something that would make the child follow them. I think the trade-off isn't worth it though, I think that the kid should choose later what he's going to believe. If I have a son, I'm going to tell him what is best for him in this secular society and let him believe what he wants and not scare him with thoughts of hell. That's me though, of course you're free to raise him as you see fit and would never say that you should raise him a certain way. I'm sure he'll be fine believing what you do. I have many religious friends who are great people. I also have many atheist friends who are equally as moral, so I was just stating my view that religion isn't necessary for morals, but yeah, certainly religion can ground them in specific examples of stories in which the morals come into play. I'd probably give real life examples instead of those found in the bible though.

Not all Atheists are good, I never said they were. But if they were religious it wouldn't mean that they wouldn't have done the stuff they did. It's funny that you should make up the god Athe, as though that violence were in the name of something. They were just violent people.

King Crimson776 wrote: Ivan, I understand your desire to have your kid have morals that are based in something that would make the child follow them. I think the trade-off isn't worth it though,   No, I want my kid to have morals based in WHAT I HONESTLY BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH.   I think that the kid should choose later what he's going to believe.   That's the way it works, I Baptize him, make sure he makes his first Confession and first Communion, I teach him the bases but the rest is in him.   My parents neversaid a word when I became an Agnostic in my teen rebellion against everything, I ppersonally found my path in the university, nobody can force you to do anything.   If he later wants he will make his CONFIRMATION, if not, well he won't.    If I have a son, I'm going to tell him what is best for him in this secular society and let him believe what he wants and not scare him with thoughts of hell.    ROFLMAO, You are being more radical than any religious person:   "Hey kid, I'm your father, I won't teach you religion, because I don't believe in it, but if you want you can be a religious person later, in the meanwhile I'm only teaching you secular values."   For God's sake     That's me though, of course you're free to raise him as you see fit and would never say that you should raise him a certain way. I'm sure he'll be fine believing what you do. I have many religious friends who are great people. I also have many atheist friends who are equally as moral, so I was just stating my view that religion isn't necessary for morals, but yeah, certainly religion can ground them in specific examples of stories in which the morals come into play. I'd probably give real life examples instead of those found in the bible though.   We are not so different, only that I'm sure that what is in the Bible (especially in the New Testament) is real.   Iván   BTW: Ghost of Morphy, your case is perfect, you didn't failled, I only mention the order of priorities because I was ready to read (from other members) that we were using Religion as an instrument of socialization.   I believe I know your posuition about this issues

Oh, wow! I leave this thread and people are still discussing the music, then I return a couple of days later, and it's turned into UFC Holy smackdown!   Classic!

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: King Crimson776 wrote: Ivan, I understand your desire to have your kid have morals that are based in something that would make the child follow them. I think the trade-off isn't worth it though,   No, I want my kid to have morals based in WHAT I HONESTLY BELIEVE IS THE TRUTH.   I think that the kid should choose later what he's going to believe.   That's the way it works, I Baptize him, make sure he makes his first Confession and first Communion, I teach him the bases but the rest is in him.   My parents neversaid a word when I became an Agnostic in my teen rebellion against everything, I ppersonally found my path in the university, nobody can force you to do anything.   If he later wants he will make his CONFIRMATION, if not, well he won't.    If I have a son, I'm going to tell him what is best for him in this secular society and let him believe what he wants and not scare him with thoughts of hell.    ROFLMAO, You are being more radical than any religious person:   "Hey kid, I'm your father, I won't teach you religion, because I don't believe in it, but if you want you can be a religious person later, in the meanwhile I'm only teaching you secular values."   For God's sake     That's me though, of course you're free to raise him as you see fit and would never say that you should raise him a certain way. I'm sure he'll be fine believing what you do. I have many religious friends who are great people. I also have many atheist friends who are equally as moral, so I was just stating my view that religion isn't necessary for morals, but yeah, certainly religion can ground them in specific examples of stories in which the morals come into play. I'd probably give real life examples instead of those found in the bible though.   We are not so different, only that I'm sure that what is in the Bible (especially in the New Testament) is real.   Iván   BTW: Ghost of Morphy, your case is perfect, you didn't failled, I only mention the order of priorities because I was ready to read (from other members) that we were using Religion as an instrument of socialization.   I believe I know your posuition about this issues