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Avantgardehead View Drop Down
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 03:03
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

secular prog pwns


Oh yes. I think segregating music based on religion is utter stupidity, though.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 10:50
Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

secular prog pwns


Oh yes. I think segregating music based on religion is utter stupidity, though.
 
Stupid?
 
I'm not in favour of clerical or preaching music, but I wouldn't dare to call iot stupid, that's offensive, they have the right to play it, we have the right to disdsagree and criticize it, but to call the stupids just because they got a position with which I don't agree.
 
You are doing the same that some of us have crioticized in Christian Prog, but worst, because none oof them has called us stupids.
 
Iván 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 29 2007 at 00:53
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 11:31
When you express what you feel in music, that's Art. You may write about everything you feel, everything... Acknowleging God is a need, and it's amazing when an artist does this via lyrics. Howerver, overdoing it may cause negative consequences. Listeners may be bored. But, I think if the artist feels that he should continue to express his acknowlegment or admiration to God, he must continue to do this, no matter what critics say.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 20:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

secular prog pwns


Oh yes. I think segregating music based on religion is utter stupidity, though.
 
Stupid?
 
I'm not in favour of clerical or preaching music, but I wouldn't dare to call iot stupid, that's offensive, they have the right to play it, we have the right to disdsagree and criticize it, but to call the stupids just because they got a position with which I don't agree.
 
You are doing the same that some of us have crioticized in Christian Prog, but worst, because none oof them has called us stupids.
 
Iván
 


It sounds like you misunderstood him, Ivan. By his post, he doesn't think religious music is stupid, but segregating religious music is stupid. Don't know exactly what he means by "segregating," though.
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Points: 10063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 20:09
I think he meant "categorizing" Stonas. As for me, I don't mind at all, as long as the music sounds good to me. I do appreciate positive, uplifting "religious music/lyrics".

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Points: 894 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 21:11
Originally posted by Tommydouglas Tommydouglas wrote:

I'm impressed that, on the first page (I haven't read the others yet) people were respectful in their replies avoiding the usual "I hate religion" defensive. Impressive since the anti-relgion folks tend to be extremely defensive and usually more dogmatic and fundamentalist than those they're criticizing.   

I'm impressed that in a single post you talked about being impressed by taking the high-road, and then you gracefully contradicted yourself and did the exact opposite of that.
Way to go. Stern%20Smile
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 21:52
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

secular prog pwns


Oh yes. I think segregating music based on religion is utter stupidity, though.
 
Stupid?
 
I'm not in favour of clerical or preaching music, but I wouldn't dare to call iot stupid, that's offensive, they have the right to play it, we have the right to disdsagree and criticize it, but to call the stupids just because they got a position with which I don't agree.
 
You are doing the same that some of us have crioticized in Christian Prog, but worst, because none oof them has called us stupids.
 
Iván
 


It sounds like you misunderstood him, Ivan. By his post, he doesn't think religious music is stupid, but segregating religious music is stupid. Don't know exactly what he means by "segregating," though.


I don't agree with labeling music based on the religions of the members or any religious message. It's the whole "secular vs. Christian" or whatnot that bugs me. Music is music.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2007 at 23:51
Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:



I don't agree with labeling music based on the religions of the members or any religious message. It's the whole "secular vs. Christian" or whatnot that bugs me. Music is music.
 
But it exists, take two examples:
 
  1. Eggroll Israel: All of the members are obviously Jewishs, but they do Prog music weithout any conection, it's not Jewish music, it's Prog. It's so independant their position that Lior Seeker sings without any problem the last part of Supper's Ready "This is the supper of the mighty one,Lord of Lords,
    King of Kings Has returned to take his children home, To take them to the new Jerusalem."     which is an obvious reference to second comming of Christ, something that's against their religious basics, being they don't believe in Christ. But this is healthy, they take music as music.
  2. Neal Morse: Well it's obvious he preaches and involuntarilly divides people with his lyrics, I'm not the only Catholic ogffended by some of his llyrics and that's wromg IMO.

Not even the original lyrics of Supper's Ready were Chriostian Rock, just Prog using Biblical references, while in the other case it's Christian Rock, created to preach and evangelize, that's what i don't believe is healthy.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 30 2007 at 23:50
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 24 2007 at 03:11
Originally posted by steve j steve j wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

OK, I'll try again.  Anyone familiar with Rick Wakeman's In the Beginning or the Resident's Wormwood?  Wakeman's is certainly Christian.  Wormwood is more old Teastament.  Wakeman's is more mellow to the point of being wimpy.  And the Resident's one is almost diametrically opposite in it's creepiness....
 
Wormwood ................................There's that word again.  What does it mean?
 
My interpretation is that it's a herb, only found in the Ukraine.  The word has a Ukrainian translation.  Its called Chernobyl.   Does the word sound familiar?
 
The bible mentions this herb.   It says: -
 
Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood.  A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 
 
The interpretaion is in the ears of the receiver, but to me the interpretation is clear. It is no accident that the word Wormword is used.
 
Thank you Rick (Wakeman).  Wormwood seems more New Testament to me, but I am not unhappy if others disagree with me.

The Resident's album Wormwood has songs from both Testaments but has more from the old.
" The stories and ideas represented here are definitely in the Bible. The desire is to neither vilify nor sanctify the book, but to allow it to be humanized. For the Bible to be looked upon as spiritually uplifting is good and useful, but that view overlooks the Bible's abundant images of plague, torture, and cruelty."

My point was not to delve into any controversy, but merely to bring up two albums in my collection that are progressive and have biblical themes.  Wakeman's being of lighter nature and Resident's being rather dark.


Edited by Slartibartfast - December 24 2007 at 03:21
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 149 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 07:19
richard dawkins .... ha!

if there was a prize for how many untestable theories one person could come up with, he'd win.
if left is wrong i don't wanna be right...
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Points: 4659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 07:54
Originally posted by Yorkie X Yorkie X wrote:


Kerry LIvgren writes in a clever way he allows the listener to find the meaning whatever that meaning may be. he isn't preachy at all he makes it fun to receive meaning and I finish listening to all of his songs wanting to find out more. Certain words and phrases have a more poetic and musical quality about them Livgren seems to be such a master composer he knows what sounds best and means the most.


Well I'm one of the biggest Kansas/Livgren/Proto-Kaw fanboys around here, but I have to disagree with you at least to some extent. Kerry's very early (pre-conversion) spiritual lyrics fit your description, and I would say he's largely grown better with age, but there was a time just post-conversion when the guy was just insufferable.

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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 15:02
Originally posted by shanocles shanocles wrote:

richard dawkins .... ha!

if there was a prize for how many untestable theories one person could come up with, he'd win.


Ha, the first untestable theory that comes to my mind is "God" and that's a pretty major one, but okay! [/rant]
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Points: 127 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 16:45
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by Yorkie X Yorkie X wrote:


Kerry LIvgren writes in a clever way he allows the listener to find the meaning whatever that meaning may be. he isn't preachy at all he makes it fun to receive meaning and I finish listening to all of his songs wanting to find out more. Certain words and phrases have a more poetic and musical quality about them Livgren seems to be such a master composer he knows what sounds best and means the most.


Well I'm one of the biggest Kansas/Livgren/Proto-Kaw fanboys around here, but I have to disagree with you at least to some extent. Kerry's very early (pre-conversion) spiritual lyrics fit your description, and I would say he's largely grown better with age, but there was a time just post-conversion when the guy was just insufferable.


Right you are.  I generally try to ignore that time period, however.
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Points: 4338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2007 at 17:53
Originally posted by pogoowner pogoowner wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

Originally posted by Yorkie X Yorkie X wrote:


Kerry LIvgren writes in a clever way he allows the listener to find the meaning whatever that meaning may be. he isn't preachy at all he makes it fun to receive meaning and I finish listening to all of his songs wanting to find out more. Certain words and phrases have a more poetic and musical quality about them Livgren seems to be such a master composer he knows what sounds best and means the most.


Well I'm one of the biggest Kansas/Livgren/Proto-Kaw fanboys around here, but I have to disagree with you at least to some extent. Kerry's very early (pre-conversion) spiritual lyrics fit your description, and I would say he's largely grown better with age, but there was a time just post-conversion when the guy was just insufferable.


Right you are.  I generally try to ignore that time period, however.
 
I think Kerry musically at this point of his life was not as productive as he had been with Kansas and AD and not what he would be with Somewhere to Elsewhere/Collectors Sediton and then the Proto-Kaw cd's.  He had no band to produce for nothing to really drive him as it were. He seems to do his best work in that enviorment rather than solo projects regardless of the subject of his songs.  It is like he gets a musical picuture with the members in his head and his songs forms around thier dynamics.  When he is solo he tends to try and do most of the instrumentation himself which I think lacks a bit of virtousity on some of the instruments and makes the overall sound seem spartan by comparison. His stable of vocalists have less range (with the exception of Jake Livgren) than their band counterparts as well.  I guess there may have been some laziness in the lyrics as well.  Not his best effort for sure. 


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Points: 157 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2007 at 01:03
 What difference does one's faith have to do with their prog preference? If you like to listen to Christian prog bands, then great, enjoy them. Why must one pick one or another? Listen to both, or listen to one of the other.
 As for the duty for  Christians  to share their faith, well I believe you will find that requirement in your bible, and that too many Christians feel it is their duty to "share" their faith. Cry
 I think it's alright to sing about particular believes, political opinions, or ones views on a range of topics. But why must seemly every Christian prog, or any other Christian band for that matter, have to sing about their faith on every song on every album!? Give God a ride for a few tunes, then give it a rest, and sing about something else. I feel the same for the political albums too, BTW.
( I know I'm going to get roasted for "the every song on every album, but so be it).
 I guess I'm old enough to remember when rock n roll was the "Devils" music. Now we have Christian rock bands....
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Points: 1008 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2007 at 04:22

I haven't time to read the whole thread at the moment so apologies if anyone has already said this.

For religious oriented prog rock Quintessence are THE band.  Magnificent musicianship and some beautifully complex melodies as well as some great raw rock.  Their religious lyric varies between Christian and Hare Krishna and several points in between.

If you haven't heard them already start with the album "Self" and in particular the track "Vishnu Narain".
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Points: 26 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2007 at 10:47
Originally posted by Aeternus Aeternus wrote:

When you express what you feel in music, that's Art. You may write about everything you feel, everything... Acknowleging God is a need, and it's amazing when an artist does this via lyrics. Howerver, overdoing it may cause negative consequences. Listeners may be bored. But, I think if the artist feels that he should continue to express his acknowlegment or admiration to God, he must continue to do this, no matter what critics say.
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Points: 354 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2007 at 14:36
Originally posted by zarg2112 zarg2112 wrote:

Originally posted by Aeternus Aeternus wrote:

When you express what you feel in music, that's Art. You may write about everything you feel, everything... Acknowleging God is a need, and it's amazing when an artist does this via lyrics. Howerver, overdoing it may cause negative consequences. Listeners may be bored. But, I think if the artist feels that he should continue to express his acknowlegment or admiration to God, he must continue to do this, no matter what critics say.
ClapBravo


Very very true.
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Points: 891 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2007 at 20:07
i don't generally like "Christian music" because i think the music is very washed out and bland. also as a christian, i find the idea of using Jesus as a marketing tool offensive.  i think tons of christian music bands out there do it because they lack the ability to produce original music. of course i dont think that applies to all bands but case in point, i won't ever feel i need to listen to music that i dont like just because it's labeled christian.

yes, christians do have a obligation to share their faith (i mean, if you find music you think is really great you tell your friends about it right?). i do not however feel that it has to be beaten into everything a person does. in fact, i think it's rather inappropriate to spew out generic messages that anyone kind find in the bible to an anonymous audience. nobody wants to become a christian because they heard some crappy music with preachy lyrics. it's just like handing out religious pamphlets on the street. nobody really takes them seriously and most people (including myself) are just annoyed by strangers trying to tell you what to do.
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Points: 6 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2007 at 02:48
Actually I think that the ELP lyrics that you cite are not anti-God, though they are perhaps anti-Religion. Karn Evil 9: 1st impression, seems to me to be about the rather chaotic speeds at which our society moves, as evidenced by its fast tempo, and its weird lyrics that skip from one thing to the next, from a "real blade of grass" to  "soon the gypsy queen in a glaze of Vaseline will perform a guillotine". So I think that the lyrics about Jesus are more condemning the use of Jesus as a marketing tool, or as a flashy spectacle, than they are condemning Jesus or the Christian faith.

I don't know if someone already said this, if so, I'm sorry, but I think if you look at the context of where that line is in the song, you will understand its meaning better than if you try to analyze it by itself.
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