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Topic ClosedBoston???

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Poll Question: Should Boston be given a spot in prog related?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [29.27%]
29 [70.73%]
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Yorkie X View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:03
Doesn't the simple fact of if people like Boston or not effect the original intentions for this poll , i personally like Boston so I'd be happy to see them here,  but that shouldn't be the reason I vote Yes should it ?  however if I am to consider Tracks Boston have Done like Foreplay , The Journey , The Launch , Walk On Melody  there's little doubt Boston is prog related and should be added ASAP 


As far as Toto goes I believe they too had several prog related songs Child's Anthem, Hydra, Saint George & The Dragon , Home Of The Brave  , the entire Dune Album  many moments on their latest CD "Falling In Between"   so maybe in order to bring this site up to speed admin should take a listen and compare this semi progressive stuff to some of the questionables who are already here.

Journey should be here too  , listen to their first album and see for yourself

I started a thread a while ago wanted to add Boston it was just after Brad Delp passed away I wanted to celebrate his life here at prog archives sadly it fell on deaf ears and never happened   ...  so here we are again ..  and we will keep returning to this point , the Boston thing won't just go away too many prog fans are interested in them or have been into them at some stage  Boston are so prog related they are a stepping stone to  prog  .. 

its amazing to think bands like Magnum & Triumph (who I like BTW) are here but these bands are not .. I know its a prog site but these bands like Boston etc draw in a wider audience and make prog a part of the unaware to prog typical peoples  lives too and that's got to be worth while thinking about. In a sense this site would be lifting its profile adding such a mighty dinosaur aor  prog related band like Boston ... wait ... prog would be gaining big time.

You know when you are sitting at home watching a quiz show on the TV and you know the answer to the the million dollar question and you shout at the television but nobody hears you  ? ...  that's how this feels


Edited by Yorkie X - November 13 2007 at 09:47
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ghost_of_morphy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:18
Originally posted by Bluesaga Bluesaga wrote:

I like Boston, but prog rock they are most certainly not.
 
The suggestion is that they are prog-related, not prog.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 01:58
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Melgar, I feel no further need to respond to your slanderous posts, your obtuse persistence in your own opinion, your unbalanced rants, your dishonest dismissal of what has been said or any other thing you say in this thread.  Anybody who cares to can go through these posts and make up their own minds about them.   Not that I suspect many people will care to make that effort. 
 
Now let me once again offer you some very good advice that you would be wise to heed.
 
Grow up.   Move on.
 
Dishonesty?
 
I have quoted word by word, i don't claim Toto and Phil Collins must be here and after an Administrator posts a different thing, you change your post and say...No, Phil Collins and Toto shouldn't be here...I stand on my beliefs nio matter how unpopular they are.
 
You invent words I never said.
 
You offfend, insult, you add bands that are not part of this thread and then blame them on me.
 
I have proved my honesty (not that I need to) working hours for free in this site that you enjoy without any effort, and you dare to call me dishonest?
 
I will avoid qualifying you because I won't go down to your level, but calling me dishonest, is an offence i won't accept..
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 13 2007 at 02:07
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 02:07
I only care about the topic no need to fight about this stuff , if Boston gets added great if they don't great either way I'm sure admin will make the best call
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 04:32
Admin hat on.
 
This thread was temporarily removed by another member of the Admin team (who is has not participated in the discussion), as it has been tarnished by personal battles and superfluous comment.
 
The original proposal is for Boston to be added as Prog related. Let's see if we can continue to debate that without any personal comments, attacks on others, attempts to make others look stupid, belittle etc.
 
Surely we can discuss such matter without the distraction of personal battles.
 
Admin hat off.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 04:44
Well Bob, I think the debates about possible additions will only become more and more serious and heated because in my opinion it is so subjective and since my arrival on Prog Archives in early 2004 I notice that there is no consequent approach towards new additions. A year ago I proposed The Tubes and The Stranglers, obviously more prog-related than bands that are already on this site and I also would like to go for Journey, their first three albums are very prog-related. But I have given up to discuss it, to open threads about band additions and even I have stopped to add bands because I want to avoid discussions that often ends as in this thread Ouch I prefer to save my energy, time and good mood for positive and 'harmless' threads.

Edited by erik neuteboom - November 13 2007 at 05:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 05:37
Originally posted by Lady In Black Lady In Black wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[
 
Neither Boston, not a single Prog or similar to prog or related to prog track.
 
Check Prog bands, this is a Prog site.
 
Iván
 
Improper sentence Ivan, because if PR isn't a genre this sentence isn't totally correct because It seems to make understand that PR is a genre, thing that isn't.
 
This is the motive for which they made these proposals of inclusions.  It isn't clear the concept of family, to apply, according to me, also to true genres. 
 
Surely my English is not as good as a native born USA or British, but I believe I was clear, I said Boston doesbn't have a similar or nearly similar or Related Prog Track.
 
BTW: If you read the Prog related definition, my name is in the botton, because I wrote it and was approved by the Adms and M@X so I believe i know what Prog Related means.
 
The last sentence, is a request for people to worry for Prog bands not for doubious related bands.
 
Iván
[/QUOTE]
 
Ivan, I'm Italian and I speak Italian, sure. Proper for this the sentence isn't clear, because without examples it seems to tell want that also the PR bands are Prog (at least so I can interpret it). In fact PR is a family of bands that have inflienced true Prog bands (also in the 70's). But I think that also the case of Rock bands influenced by Prog bands are cases of Prog Related (better: Related to Prog). And this is the case of Toto. So for some people 10CC (and Godley & Creme) or ELO are 100% Prog. Also for me, in certain moments 10CC or ELO are 100% Prog. Mandrakeroot says to find Prog also in Démis Roussos music. Sure, this is true. Démis speak in Prog terms for to describe its 70's production (see the Italian compilation "Démis Roussos" [sleeve notes write in Italian by Démis...]).
For me Boston, Toto, Journey are good case of Related to Prog, nothing all. But I think that different it's the case of Mountain because produced 100% Prog songs or the case of Cream because an album of "Disraeli Gears" contain sure Blues, White blues but is innovative for 1967 and to sort Cream like PP band is simply obvious.
 
Well, Judas Priest with "Rocka Rolla" and Saxon with "Saxon" plays Heavy Prog in their debuts. Also the RCA phase of discography of Scorpions contain superb Prog moments ("Fly To The Rainbows" is a 100% Floyd song!) and sure these are great examples. Like sure, in a certain sense, Motorhead plays a sort of (excuse me for the language) Fukin' R'n'R very near to the Prog (but in R'n'R field!) like in the 60's sure an example of Prog in music is the case of many bands (The Shadows, The Zombies... For examples). So Grateful Dead. This band isn't Prog. Or better is Prog. But not Prog in Prog terms. Prog in Rock, Blues and Psychedelic field, like Jimi Hendrix.
 
So, if PR is a clear family of bands with the PA policy isn't clear the role of Related to Prog bands, that isn't PR bands because influenced by full Prog bands but remains true Rock (or Heavy Rock or Heavy Metal or...) bands or the role of bands like Cream or Jimi Hendrix that plays in an era of great changes (from Beat, White Blues and Psychedelia and full Prog era) that for me are all PP bands.
 
This is my personal opinion.
 
P.s.: The Related to Prog category/ family isn't a category for PA. But the bands/ artists of this category/ family are sure bands/ artists for PA.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 05:45
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Melgar, I feel no further need to respond to your slanderous posts, your obtuse persistence in your own opinion, your unbalanced rants, your dishonest dismissal of what has been said or any other thing you say in this thread.  Anybody who cares to can go through these posts and make up their own minds about them.   Not that I suspect many people will care to make that effort. 
 
Now let me once again offer you some very good advice that you would be wise to heed.
 
Grow up.   Move on.
 
Dishonesty?
 
I have quoted word by word, i don't claim Toto and Phil Collins must be here and after an Administrator posts a different thing, you change your post and say...No, Phil Collins and Toto shouldn't be here...I stand on my beliefs nio matter how unpopular they are.
 
You invent words I never said.
 
You offfend, insult, you add bands that are not part of this thread and then blame them on me.
 
I have proved my honesty (not that I need to) working hours for free in this site that you enjoy without any effort, and you dare to call me dishonest?
 
I will avoid qualifying you because I won't go down to your level, but calling me dishonest, is an offence i won't accept..
 
Iván
 
I agree with you, Ivan.
 
Because beginning to insult itself we breed only discussions that don't carry to nothing. 
 
Better my previous post, because seeks to explain (and I believe there to succeed) the reason come done certain proposals of inclusion.
 
That in definitive... Is a great field for to exchange ideas on thing is the Prog for each forum members.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:13
Originally posted by erik neuteboom erik neuteboom wrote:

Well Bob, I think the debates about possible additions will only become more and more serious and heated because in my opinion it is so subjective


Of course it is subjective, this is music - "serious & heated" are fine, indeed sometimes necessary, but personal insults are not.

Let's keep it clean guys, yes?

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:43
hmmmm... not surprised Morphy and Ivan lost their heads...  that is what happens when you take this stuff too serously.  I can speak from experience... it is a place I have been as well.  I saw it coming... and tried to stop it before they embarissed themselves.

Erik raised a point... one that I asked Bob for his personal opinion on (since the admin hat was off LOL) earlier in the thread.   So I expand my question... and just offer a bit of advice.. take it or leave it. 

to the admins.... it might really help if you did clarify what the scope of PR admissions are .   Are we shooting for a sense of completelness in the work we do here... or are these addittions targeted to the site in particular.  Either for bringing in bands that  many prog fans know and may love...  groups that might bring others to this site.... or like the rest of the genre teams... shooting to make this site the archives of prog music... and since we have it here... by extension.... prog related music.

maybe it will... maybe it won't help amoung the general posting population.. ...but it might with the collabs... and if you don't have the collabs all on the same page... you never will get the general population to undestand.

just my two euro-cents...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:55
The answer is rather simple but opinions make it vague.


I personally am happy to vote to include "non-Prog" bands which have the following criteria:

1. They have been heavily influenced by Prog Rock in a way that can be demonstrated via documentary evidence or obvious traits in their music.
2. They have influenced Prog Rock bands in a way that can be documented.
3. They satisfy either of the above criteria and create music that will either be of interest to Prog Rock fans who wouldnt normally listen to the band because of negative pre-conceptions of the band or of interest to non-Prog fans who might use them as stepping stone to real Prog by finding them on our site.


Edited by Tony R - November 13 2007 at 07:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 06:59
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

They are the icons of AOR, that disqualifies them, it's just better POP than the average but nothing more, no way they should be added.
 
Iván


Whilst I am certainly not convinced Boston should be here, I wonder how being mainstream can disqualify a band from being included here.
Genesis were THE icons of AOR for over a decade, certainly far longer than they were the darlings of the Prog scene.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:15
thanks for the thoughts  Tony.... I think we all tire of these kinds of threads every time a group like this comes along.   It would have been nice to have people express their opinions... their reasons for thinking the way they do...and just leave it at that.  Not try to spend pages convincing people that they are right.. and you are wrong.  the music is too subjective to ever.... ever .. change anyone's mind.   In the process.. people get amped up..and it turns personal.  Always has.. always will. 

Edited by micky - November 13 2007 at 07:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:24
I think it is fair to say that this thread proves Boston are of interest to Prog Rock fans; certainly people contributing to this thread appear to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the band and all its albums.Wink So from that viewpoint they qualify.


My own personal impression is that they make well-crafted, intelligent rock music that has a broad appeal but I cannot see the link to Prog or how their inclusion would be of benefit other than the fact that they obviously have many fans who might get drawn here by via a search engine. Is that a good enough reason to include? It might be great for advertising revenue but on all other levels I would be opposed to their inclusion.





Edited by Tony R - November 13 2007 at 07:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:26
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

The answer is rather simple but opinions make it vague.


I personally am happy to vote to include "non-Prog" bands which have the following criteria:

1. They have been heavily influenced by Prog Rock in a way that can be demonstrated via documentary evidence or obvious traits in their music.



back on topic....  I think there is enough in that to at least have you all consider Boston... it isn't particularly important.. and I don't buy the idea that their are masses of Boston fans skulking the web looking for sites where they might find Boston and might find this site LOL.  But for a sense of completeness...  and a nice way of showing how the popularity of prog on college campuses.. especially on the east coast really did influence up and coming bands.. like Boston in the early to mid 70's.  The same rationale that was used for Zeppelin... just how big prog was for a short time... it's influence hit the biggest of groups.. and those groups just getting started.


Edited by micky - November 13 2007 at 07:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:29
I'm still waiting for my vote, because I still have the open question which part of an artist's discography should be prog (related) to be included in our beloved archives resp. in the PR category of our beloved archives.
I'm almost sure about a No, because I think one song on five albums (Foreplay / Long Time) is not enough, but I insist on the fact that Toto is a more interesting discussion.
Europe would also be fair for some stuff from their debut (Seven doors hotel, for example), whether you like it or not... but let's not go into that. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:31
^ hahahha... agreed.. let's not... .one fire at a time...LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

The answer is rather simple but opinions make it vague.


I personally am happy to vote to include "non-Prog" bands which have the following criteria:

1. They have been heavily influenced by Prog Rock in a way that can be demonstrated via documentary evidence or obvious traits in their music.



back on topic....  I think there is enough in that to at least have you all consider Boston... it isn't particularly important.. and I don't buy the idea that their are masses of Boston fans skulking the web looking for sites where they might find Boston and might find this site LOL. .


You are very wrong on this Micky. If they are doing a specific search for album info then they will get here.

I just did a search for Secret Treaties by BOC and Progarchives came up on the first page..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=blue+oyster+cult+%2Bsecret+treaties&btnG=Search

soLOL back at ya pal..Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:42
oh Tony...I know that PA's often comes up first in the list of google hits... my point is .... is it worth it to add a band just for the ability to bring new fans here... and let's face it.. I don't think there are THAT many hahahha. That was the point I tried to make.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2007 at 07:43
I am afraid the problem is just that... There are lots of bands or artists who have recorded a few prog songs, or even a whole album, though they are generally known for a rather different kind of musical output. There are lots of such cases in the history of Italian pop music, especially since in the Seventies prog was such a big phenomenon in my country.

Personally, I think the only solution to the problem would be allowing for single-album entries instead of having to add whole discographies which, in far too many cases, have nothing whatsoever to do with prog. However, it seems the idea is not very popular, so I'm afraid we'll keep on seeing threads like this one for a long, long time.
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