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MikeEnRegalia 
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 Posted: October 28 2007 at 14:56 |
 P.H.P. wrote:
For me, the only way Metal can be Prog is if it's a sub-genre of Prog Rock, strongly influenced by it, otherwise it only is what has been called "Technical Metal", IMO.
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What about metal bands which were strongly influenced by Jazz-Rock/Fusion? The point is that modern metal came to full bloom in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and by that most of the original Prog Rock genres had been around for a long time. Some metal bands were jazz-rock influenced, others were avant-garde ... some liked neo prog, some liked symphonic prog etc.. This is how a genre can be closely tied to prog rock, but still not be an ordinary sub genre.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:21 |
micky wrote:
bhikkhu wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
"Why
different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all
the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the
bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together."Sorry,
but I don't think that any of the other genres was comparable to prog
metal as far as stylistic bandwidth is concerned. Imagine that
Symphonic, RIO, Eclectic Prog and Post Rock were combined ... would
that be a good thing? |
No, but they don't all have a common thread, such as all being Metal bands.
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silly me... how about all being rock bands as a common thread... a category as mushy and wide as metal...
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I think you are missing my point. Everything here is Prog, but we have subdivided it to show commonalities. All the bands in the Metal sub-genres have metal in common. This is something the other sub-genres do not have. Where there are commonalities with other bands, such as Electronic, or Symphonic, we put them together. But for some reason Metal has been deemed to be a special case.
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:26 |
bhikkhu wrote:
micky wrote:
bhikkhu wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
"Why
different? What makes it so special? Every genre is as important as all
the others and some are pretty much more complex than Metal, all the
bands in this genres have the Metal component, all should be together."Sorry,
but I don't think that any of the other genres was comparable to prog
metal as far as stylistic bandwidth is concerned. Imagine that
Symphonic, RIO, Eclectic Prog and Post Rock were combined ... would
that be a good thing? |
No, but they don't all have a common thread, such as all being Metal bands.
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silly me... how about all being rock bands as a common thread... a category as mushy and wide as metal...
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I think you are missing my point. Everything here is Prog, but we
have subdivided it to show commonalities. All the bands in the Metal
sub-genres have metal in common. This is something the other sub-genres
do not have. Where there are commonalities with other bands, such as
Electronic, or Symphonic, we put them together. But for some reason
Metal has been deemed to be a special case.
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HT... those you mentioned are subs based on a sound. for
the very large part... metal is no sound... just a tag someone throws
at a group. Just as much as being called a rock group ...or a pop
group. I think the whole point that the PMT was making .. is the
only commonality between all those groups in PM is that they are
labelled as metal... to group them together just based on that ..
.would indeed be the same as taking all the rock groups that were
prog.. and putting them all together. Regardless of musical
differences beyond a rock quotient.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:35 |
micky wrote:
HT... those you mentioned are subs based on a sound. for
the very large part... metal is no sound... just a tag someone throws
at a group. Just as much as being called a rock group ...or a pop
group. I think the whole point that the PMT was making .. is the
only commonality between all those groups in PM is that they are
labelled as metal... to group them together just based on that ..
.would indeed be the same as taking all the rock groups that were
prog.. and putting them all together. Regardless of musical
differences beyond a rock quotient.
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Metal doesn't have a distinct sound? That's news to me. I guess I better have someone else go through my collection so I will be able to tell which ones are Metal, and which ones aren't. 
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micky
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:38 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:42 |
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Dean
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:47 |
The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. So, if you permutate all the Metal Styles with all the Prog Styles you get an alarming number of Prog Metal styles (I don't think we've had Zeuhl-Black Metal yet, but it's only a mater of time...).
Grouping all these styles of PM under one banner is not helpful to a PM fan because it does not follow that they will like all styles of Metal just because it's Metal - In non-prog Metal I do not like the sub-genre of Power Metal (and its sub-subgenre Battle Metal) and would avoid any Prog Metal band that based their music around that subgenre.
I agree with many of the posts here that say that the three subs should be grouped together under a PM banner, but the site (and hence the archive database) is not hierarchical - it is flat - i.e. the sub-genres are not organised in a parent-child relational tree.
Edited by darqdean - October 28 2007 at 22:49
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What?
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Atavachron
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 22:54 |
bhikkhu wrote:
The Art split was needed because of the diversity of styles. The split of metal doesn't make sense to me from of point of sheer logic. Why couldn't the diversity of the bands have been dealt with within the existing sub-genre? They are all still Metal bands. And it seems some of the supporters know this without realizing it.
micky wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
think of it this way; you walk into a record shop that has music in
thoughtful and knowledgeable sections instead of all mixed together,
say it has a large metal section with Tech, Experimental and
traditional progmetal sub-sections where right away you discover
several things you'd been interested in... then you go to a
record shop that lumps rock, pop, metal, psych, punk, and classic prog
all together, and you realize you would've never found that copy of Skullgrid
if you had to look through all the other stuff in the second record
shop. Which place will earn your respect, and where are you more
likely to go next time?
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don't know whether to kiss you David ( probably not a good idea  ) or envy you.
well said.... much better than I could say hahhaha... 
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And sometimes they don't.
darqdean wrote:
For me, one of the pluses of the splitting of Prog-Metal is that many of the bands weren't related at all. To your average Arcturus or Isis fan, a Dream Theater or Pain Of Salvation CD is a $15 frisbee - and vice versa. |
Not related at all? They aren't all Metal bands?
Oh well. Like I said it is a matter of logic for me, and I am a bit anal about these things. If I see a crooked picture, I have to straighten it. Life goes on.
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fair enough H.T., but my opinion as to whether or not Progmetal is a part of Metal or a part of Prog has little to do with the unanimous judgment of a team of experts that a separation is important
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 28 2007 at 23:15 |
darqdean wrote:
The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. So, if you permutate all the Metal Styles with all the Prog Styles you get an alarming number of Prog Metal styles (I don't think we've had Zeuhl-Black Metal yet, but it's only a mater of time...).
Grouping all these styles of PM under one banner is not helpful to a PM fan because it does not follow that they will like all styles of Metal just because it's Metal - In non-prog Metal I do not like the sub-genre of Power Metal (and its sub-subgenre Battle Metal) and would avoid any Prog Metal band that based their music around that subgenre.
I agree with many of the posts here that say that the three subs should be grouped together under a PM banner, but the site (and hence the archive database) is not hierarchical - it is flat - i.e. the sub-genres are not organised in a parent-child relational tree.
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I disagree. If that were not the case, then these would all be divisions of Rock in general, not just Prog.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 00:39 |
A Subdivision of Metal sub-genres woyuld only work if you divide the site in three super genres, lets say Propgressicve Rock . Fusion ansd Metal.
Otherwise we are creating a priviledge sub-genre.
BTW: It's incredible to say that there's not such diversity in other genres, in Symphonic for example, we have a whole lot of bands mostly from Eastern Europe that play in the border of Symphonic and Folk.
We have other huge group of bands that have Avant or experimental sounds, mainly in the first years of this century and in United States.
Or will somebody dare to tell me that Yes, Renaissance and Shadow Circus have more in common than most Prog Metal bands
Darqdean wrote:
| The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. |
You have forgotten something Darq, this is not a Metal site but a Prog one.
In a Metal site you can make all the sub-genres you want, there's even a sub-genre of Metal called Prog Metal, but only one.
Prog Archives isd a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG.
All Prog Metal bands should be together as one more voice in the chorus, but now there are several genres with the same range and one with three sub-genres for it.
This is absurd IMHO.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 29 2007 at 00:43
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Tapfret
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 01:21 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
A Subdivision of Metal sub-genres woyuld only work if you divide the site in three super genres, lets say Propgressicve Rock . Fusion ansd Metal.
Otherwise we are creating a priviledge sub-genre.
BTW: It's incredible to say that there's not such diversity in other genres, in Symphonic for example, we have a whole lot of bands mostly from Eastern Europe that play in the border of Symphonic and Folk.
We have other huge group of bands that have Avant or experimental sounds, mainly in the first years of this century and in United States.
Or will somebody dare to tell me that Yes, Renaissance and Shadow Circus have more in common than most Prog Metal bands
Darqdean wrote:
| The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. |
You have forgotten something Darq, this is not a Metal site but a Prog one.
In a Metal site you can make all the sub-genres you want, there's even a sub-genre of Metal called Prog Metal, but only one.
Prog Archives isd a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG.
All Prog Metal bands should be together as one more voice in the chorus, but now there are several genres with the same range and one with three sub-genres for it.
This is absurd IMHO.
Iván |
The problem, as I have stated before, is that anything with a hint of a low-bottom distorted guitar automatically becomes "metal". The assertion that they don't belong is exactly what you get about these bands on metal sites. "This is a METAL site, not a PROG site", they say and go on to ridicule them as pretentious(sound familiar?). I am more content with broader subdivisions than throwing a huge blanket over Gordian Knot and Martyr and saying they are the same thing. *That* is trully absurd. I can't say Shadow Circus has anything in common with Yes or Renaissance since I have never heard Shadow Circus. But I can say that Yes and Renaissance have way more in common than Coprofago and Shadow Gallery. And from a structural point of view, Yes has more in common with Opeth than they do with UK, despite being in the same sub.
I'm not huge on making vast quantities of sun-genres, but if you are going to do it, it has to be done in a realistic manner.
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Tapfret
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 01:27 |
bhikkhu wrote:
darqdean wrote:
I agree with many of the posts here that say that the three subs should be grouped together under a PM banner, but the site (and hence the archive database) is not hierarchical - it is flat - i.e. the sub-genres are not organised in a parent-child relational tree.
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I disagree. If that were not the case, then these would all be divisions of Rock in general, not just Prog.
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Its either flat or a very short tree. As a matter of fact, its more like a shrubbery... or better yet, turf.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 01:30 |
Tapfret wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
A Subdivision of Metal sub-genres woyuld only work if you divide the site in three super genres, lets say Propgressicve Rock . Fusion ansd Metal.
Otherwise we are creating a priviledge sub-genre.
BTW: It's incredible to say that there's not such diversity in other genres, in Symphonic for example, we have a whole lot of bands mostly from Eastern Europe that play in the border of Symphonic and Folk.
We have other huge group of bands that have Avant or experimental sounds, mainly in the first years of this century and in United States.
Or will somebody dare to tell me that Yes, Renaissance and Shadow Circus have more in common than most Prog Metal bands
Darqdean wrote:
| The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. |
You have forgotten something Darq, this is not a Metal site but a Prog one.
In a Metal site you can make all the sub-genres you want, there's even a sub-genre of Metal called Prog Metal, but only one.
Prog Archives isd a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG.
All Prog Metal bands should be together as one more voice in the chorus, but now there are several genres with the same range and one with three sub-genres for it.
This is absurd IMHO.
Iván |
The problem, as I have stated before, is that anything with a hint of a low-bottom distorted guitar automatically becomes "metal". The assertion that they don't belong is exactly what you get about these bands on metal sites. "This is a METAL site, not a PROG site", they say and go on to ridicule them as pretentious(sound familiar?). I am more content with broader subdivisions than throwing a huge blanket over Gordian Knot and Martyr and saying they are the same thing. *That* is trully absurd. I can't say Shadow Circus has anything in common with Yes or Renaissance since I have never heard Shadow Circus. But I can say that Yes and Renaissance have way more in common than Coprofago and Shadow Gallery. And from a structural point of view, Yes has more in common with Opeth than they do with UK, despite being in the same sub.
I'm not huge on making vast quantities of sun-genres, but if you are going to do it, it has to be done in a realistic manner. |
I think you are taking our opposition to the split as some kind of insult to the Metal bands, or an assertion as we view them as all being the same. This is not the case. I do believe the difference between the bands in Prog Metal need to be clarified. But I also believe that the significance of their relationship to each other should remain intact.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 04:11 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
A Subdivision of Metal sub-genres woyuld only work if you divide the site in three super genres, lets say Propgressicve Rock . Fusion ansd Metal.
Otherwise we are creating a priviledge sub-genre.
We already have such a priviledged sub genre ... it's called "Prog Rock".
BTW: It's incredible to say that there's not such diversity in other genres, in Symphonic for example, we have a whole lot of bands mostly from Eastern Europe that play in the border of Symphonic and Folk.
We have other huge group of bands that have Avant or experimental sounds, mainly in the first years of this century and in United States.
Or will somebody dare to tell me that Yes, Renaissance and Shadow Circus have more in common than most Prog Metal bands
Yes, these bands are much more similar to each other than for example Dream Theater, Death and Isis.
Darqdean wrote:
| The point that Mike and Micky are making is that Metal is not a single point function, the diversity of styles within Metal is as broad, if not broader, than the various styles within Prog. |
You have forgotten something Darq, this is not a Metal site but a Prog one.
Wrong distinction. It should not be "Prog vs. Metal", but "Rock vs. Metal", and in that comparison it should be obvious to everyone that the site is still focused on Rock. It's 13+ genres vs. 3!
In a Metal site you can make all the sub-genres you want, there's even a sub-genre of Metal called Prog Metal, but only one.
"only one" ... why are you always trying to over-regulate stuff?
Prog Archives isd a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG.
All Prog Metal bands should be together as one more voice in the chorus, but now there are several genres with the same range and one with three sub-genres for it.
no, we have one genre (Prog Rock) with about 12 sub genres, another one (Prog Metal) with 3 sub genres and another genre (Jazz-Rock/Fusion) with no sub genres. Seems perfectly fine to me.
This is absurd IMHO.
Iván |
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Tapfret
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 05:06 |
bhikkhu wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
(Stuff)
Darqdean wrote:
| (some other stuff) |
(yet more stuff) |
The problem, as I have stated before, is that anything with a hint of a low-bottom distorted guitar automatically becomes "metal". The assertion that they don't belong is exactly what you get about these bands on metal sites. "This is a METAL site, not a PROG site", they say and go on to ridicule them as pretentious(sound familiar?). I am more content with broader subdivisions than throwing a huge blanket over Gordian Knot and Martyr and saying they are the same thing. *That* is trully absurd. I can't say Shadow Circus has anything in common with Yes or Renaissance since I have never heard Shadow Circus. But I can say that Yes and Renaissance have way more in common than Coprofago and Shadow Gallery. And from a structural point of view, Yes has more in common with Opeth than they do with UK, despite being in the same sub.
I'm not huge on making vast quantities of sun-genres, but if you are going to do it, it has to be done in a realistic manner. |
I think you are taking our opposition to the split as some kind of insult to the Metal bands, or an assertion as we view them as all being the same. This is not the case. I do believe the difference between the bands in Prog Metal need to be clarified. But I also believe that the significance of their relationship to each other should remain intact.
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I might need a little clarification on who falls into the context of "our opposition". My statement is directed toward Ivan's position that prog metal is getting some kind of special consideration. In particular, the statement "Prog Archives is a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG" Sounds pretty exclusionist to me, especially when we know that other sub-genres have had splits. In fact, it is pretty irrelevant whether a genre gets special treatment. What is important is that people have the opportunity to explore bands that they might like based on a common ground. I have already stated examples where that would not happen with a single PM sub. I agree with you that the relationship should stay, however, there are a few (like Gordian Knot as an easy example) that really don't fit in any metal genre. There are likely many who won't go near a genre labeled anything-metal that would miss out on something they might enjoy. It is pretty clear, from my own perspective and obviously the perspective of those with the power to make this change, that the same problem existed within the sub-genre. It is my understanding that the same issues were prevelant with the Art Rock sub.
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Raff
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 05:42 |
Tapfret wrote:
I might need a little clarification on who falls into the context of "our opposition". My statement is directed toward Ivan's position that prog metal is getting some kind of special consideration. In particular, the statement "Prog Archives is a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG" Sounds pretty exclusionist to me, especially when we know that other sub-genres have had splits. In fact, it is pretty irrelevant whether a genre gets special treatment. What is important is that people have the opportunity to explore bands that they might like based on a common ground. I have already stated examples where that would not happen with a single PM sub. I agree with you that the relationship should stay, however, there are a few (like Gordian Knot as an easy example) that really don't fit in any metal genre. There are likely many who won't go near a genre labeled anything-metal that would miss out on something they might enjoy. It is pretty clear, from my own perspective and obviously the perspective of those with the power to make this change, that the same problem existed within the sub-genre. It is my understanding that the same issues were prevelant with the Art Rock sub.
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It did indeed - this is why, in the first months of this year, we suggested the split that was made effective at the end of summer. Though I and my teammates are well aware that many site members do not agree with the split, or even just with the names we found for the three new subgenres, the situation was untenable - and not just for us who were in charge of the sub. The name, for one thing, wasn't clear, as witnessed by the numerous threads about why KC were in Art Rock (does it mean they're not prog?), and the diversity of the 400+ plus bands included in AR was overwhelming. As our priority has always been making things as user-friendly as possible, it was clear there was no other solution than a split. What happened with PM was exactly the same. Since I've been exploring more and more of the genre, I've come to realise the amount of diversity within it was comparable to what we had in AR, and that having 500+ very diverse bands all lumped together wasn't going to help anyone find their way.
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 08:07 |
Tapfret wrote:
bhikkhu wrote:
Tapfret wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
(Stuff)
Darqdean wrote:
| (some other stuff) |
(yet more stuff) |
The problem, as I have stated before, is that anything with a hint of a low-bottom distorted guitar automatically becomes "metal". The assertion that they don't belong is exactly what you get about these bands on metal sites. "This is a METAL site, not a PROG site", they say and go on to ridicule them as pretentious(sound familiar?). I am more content with broader subdivisions than throwing a huge blanket over Gordian Knot and Martyr and saying they are the same thing. *That* is trully absurd. I can't say Shadow Circus has anything in common with Yes or Renaissance since I have never heard Shadow Circus. But I can say that Yes and Renaissance have way more in common than Coprofago and Shadow Gallery. And from a structural point of view, Yes has more in common with Opeth than they do with UK, despite being in the same sub.
I'm not huge on making vast quantities of sun-genres, but if you are going to do it, it has to be done in a realistic manner. |
I think you are taking our opposition to the split as some kind of insult to the Metal bands, or an assertion as we view them as all being the same. This is not the case. I do believe the difference between the bands in Prog Metal need to be clarified. But I also believe that the significance of their relationship to each other should remain intact. |
I might need a little clarification on who falls into the context of "our opposition". My statement is directed toward Ivan's position that prog metal is getting some kind of special consideration. In particular, the statement "Prog Archives is a PROG SITE and all the diversity if Metal sub-genres is not of our main concern, we must care more for the diversity of PROG" Sounds pretty exclusionist to me, especially when we know that other sub-genres have had splits. In fact, it is pretty irrelevant whether a genre gets special treatment. What is important is that people have the opportunity to explore bands that they might like based on a common ground. I have already stated examples where that would not happen with a single PM sub. I agree with you that the relationship should stay, however, there are a few (like Gordian Knot as an easy example) that really don't fit in any metal genre. There are likely many who won't go near a genre labeled anything-metal that would miss out on something they might enjoy. It is pretty clear, from my own perspective and obviously the perspective of those with the power to make this change, that the same problem existed within the sub-genre. It is my understanding that the same issues were prevelant with the Art Rock sub.
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But Art Rock didn't have any common characteristic to bind the bands together. It was more of a clearing house for bands that didn't fit anywhere else. Metal is getting special treatment, because we now have three subs that are metal, on the same level as all the others. It is as if you are saying that those new sub-genres have as little in common with each other as Electronic and Folk. But yet, they are all still Metal bands.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 08:23 |
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Sometimes you just gotta ignore all the categories and just enjoy the music. I didn't quite like the art rock split at first. I found that almost always liked groups in that category when I checked them out. As far as the metal goes. Though I think some metal can be prog I think there has been a bit of a stepping over the line here. But hey, there's stuff I think of as prog that will never be accepted here.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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bhikkhu
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 08:40 |
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My whole point is actually quite simple, and I am amazed that there are so few people who see it. All of the bands in these new sub-genres have two things in common. They are all Progressive, and they are all Metal. Can you make the kind of blanket statement about any other two sub-genres?
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Norbert
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Posted: October 29 2007 at 09:15 |
I think the term Art Rock should be kept for VDGG, KC and GG and other bands which are now under the bizarre name eclectic. Frankly, I don't like the term eclectic very much. Maybe the other two subspecies should be called Light Art Rock and Heavy Art Rock. 
But these are mainly about the terms, I agree that so many bands were difficukt to handle under one umbrella, but art is still a more nice term than eclectic.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Are you stubborn about the genre changes?
