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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:08
^ Despite the fact that Led Zeppelin don't have anything to do with metal (neither sound-wise nor composition-wise) ... Metallica run circles around Iron Maiden in terms of musicianship, but again you need to know Master of Puppets (and And Justice For All in this case) to understand my point of view.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:14
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Metallica run circles around Iron Maiden in terms of musicianship, but again you need to know Master of Puppets (and And Justice For All in this case) to understand my point of view.



I do, and that's debatable.. I'm just postulating as to the resistance toward Metallica at a prog website.



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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:28
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

but the starter of a new genre often gets left behind in said new genre, like when Led Zep is cited as the first heavy metal band. They may have recorded some of the first 'heavy metal' ('Good Times, Bad Times', 'Communication Breakdown'), but Sabbath brought it all together and presented an, if you will, real or pure kind of heavy rock. Metallica may be in that perpetual protozoic stage, and may not be seen as having the sophistication that Maiden had. Just a thought.



 
Metallica had far more sophistication than Maiden - and the specific genre of Metallica's music is different to Maiden's because of the integration of the alternate picking thrash style - don't overlook just how significant this technique is in the formation of Prog Metal.
 
Led Zep weren't the first heavy metal band - Blue Cheer were, just as Metallica weren't the first thrash band - Judas Priest were.
 
Metallica brought it all together - and developed Prog Metal (just listen to "Sanitarium" on "Master of Puppets", "One" on "...And Justice for All"... the list goes on).
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:39
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Metallica brought it all together - and developed Prog Metal (just listen to "Sanitarium" on "Master of Puppets", "One" on "...And Justice for All"... the list goes on).



Except
1, Maiden were more progressive from the very first note
2, Harris formed the band in 1975, 1st album 1980. Metallica formed 1981, first album 1983.

When I was road crewing for the Bay Area metal scene (this was back when Kirk was with Exodus) the term 'progressive metal' was just beginning to be batted about, unfortunately few thought of Metallica as
PM, wheras Maiden was the definitive ProgMetal band. That perception may have changed since then, of course.



Edited by Atavachron - May 16 2007 at 03:42
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:44
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Led Zep weren't the first heavy metal band - Blue Cheer were, just as Metallica weren't the first thrash band - Judas Priest were.

 

Metallica brought it all together - and developed Prog Metal (just listen to "Sanitarium" on "Master of Puppets", "One" on "...And Justice for All"... the list goes on).



Except
1, Maiden were more progressive from the very first note
 
No - not true.
 
I cannot think of a single example that would prove this - can you?
 
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


2, Harris formed the band in 1975, 1st album 1980. Metallica formed 1981, first album 1983.
 
Time is irrelevant - we're talking about different musical styles.
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


When I was road crewing for the Bay Area metal scene (this was back when Kirk was with Exodus) the term 'progressive metal' was just beginning to be batted about, unfortunately few thought of Metallica as PM, wheras Maiden was the definitive ProgMetal band. That perception may have changed since then, of course.

 
No-one thought of Genesis, King Crimson, Gentle Giant or Yes as Prog Rock in 1970 - the perception may have changed somewhat... LOL


Edited by Certif1ed - May 16 2007 at 03:44
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:49
I think neither Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden or Metallica's got much to do in a Progarchive. Although I like all of them, as most of the forum-member does. I suspect that's the main reason they are all here.

I own all 80's Metallica albums, and have loved them since the late 80's. Metallica surely progressed as a thrash-metal band and sophisticated that genre. To me, you all admitting that progmetal is mainly built on Metallica + NWBHM proves to me that the progressiveness of most other progmetal = nil.

Btw: Although I'm against I'd rather have Metallica here, a band that truly progressed than most later DT-school so-called progmetal.


Edited by Rocktopus - May 16 2007 at 15:00
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 03:50
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

No - not true.
 

I cannot think of a single example that would prove this - can you?




Sure, the first Maiden album ..it contains more complexity, musicality, and what could be thought of a pseudo-classical passages. This is not evident on 'Kill`em All.







Edited by Atavachron - May 16 2007 at 03:51
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 04:09
No - it doesn't contain more complexity or musicality than Kill 'Em All (which is demostrable, BTW) - but you're right about the pseudo classical passages.
 
However, Metallica didn't just have one single rhythmic approach.
 
 
(Phantom of the Opera - remember, Maiden had been gigging for many years, as pointed out and built up a solidity in their sound and confidence with the material)
 
 
(No Remorse - remember, as also pointed out, Metallica hadn't been gigging long -  Perhaps not the best example, but reasonable for comparison if you can stick with it!)
 


Edited by Certif1ed - May 16 2007 at 04:11
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 04:18
Hey Certife1d, you're great, I really respect your tenacity and understanding.. and what great footage! I'd forgotten M opened for Raven ("Kill`em All For One Tour" Thanks.. though I think those videos only prove my point, but no worries.. if Metallica make it on to PA, good for them, I say.









Edited by Atavachron - May 16 2007 at 04:18
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 04:37
I know they're not the best examples - Metallica live videos almost always suck in comparison to a) the albums and b) the experience of being there.
 
There's no evidence of superior musicality in Iron Maiden though - and as far as complexity is concerned, sure, there's a quiet passage in the Maiden track, but there's at least equal variety in the Metallica song - one thing I've always disliked about Maiden is their tendency to use exactly the same rhythms all the time - something they have never stopped doing, as it is integral to their sound: Once you've heard one Maiden album you've heard the lot from that perspective.
 
Also, are you telling me that Kirk Hammett doesn't pwn Maiden with his soloing in that clip? He doesn't use excessive effects to hide the bum notes and bluff (they're all there, but harder to spot because there are less of them!).
 
Another excuse to post more Maiden and Metallica - Yay!!!
 
 
Metal Militia (warning, James' vocals suck more than usual... and spot the allusion to Maiden at 4:30)
 
 
(this really proves we're comparing chalk and cheese, but as to which is white and crumbly and which cheesey, that's for you to decide... Tongue).
 
The point is that Metallica's thrash style is more innovative and influential than Iron Maiden's distinctive rhythmic variants on the old metal theme - thrash as a style is a direct root of Prog Metal, and can be heard easily in Dream Theater (not to mention specific Metallica riffs Wink).


Edited by Certif1ed - May 16 2007 at 04:38
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 04:55
yes, good point about Maiden's continual use of trademark patterns, it got quite tiresome, even by NOtB. And yes, Metallica's thrash-isms were, or became, breakthrough (though not very original).

As for Kirk's playing.. he has to be one of the biggest bluffers in the history of metal. True, at that time Dave and Dennis are not enormously better but, though the techniques may be simple as compared to what an Uli Roth or Randy Rhoads were capable of, their playing and innovative twin harmonies were near perfect with *no* bluffing, just polished musicians after years of gigging.

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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:17
^ with all due respect to a fellow collaborator, but you should definitely listen to Master of Puppets and Justice before comparing Metallica to any other band.
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Points: 2808 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:19
In spite of their, errm, unusual attraction to sheep and goats, Metallica rock. I agree with Mike that Master of Puppets is an epic.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:26
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

you should definitely listen to Master of Puppets and Justice before comparing Metallica to any other band.


I've listened to both. And yes, Puppets is an epic (and Justice kicks ass), I just can't get past the artistry and new colors Maiden brought to the rock scene, and I don't usually hear that in Metallica.. maybe that's just me.






   



Edited by Atavachron - May 16 2007 at 05:30
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:37
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

yes, good point about Maiden's continual use of trademark patterns, it got quite tiresome, even by NOtB. And yes, Metallica's thrash-isms were, or became, breakthrough (though not very original).

As for Kirk's playing.. he has to be one of the biggest bluffers in the history of metal. True, at that time Dave and Dennis are not enormously better but, though the techniques may be simple as compared to what an Uli Roth or Randy Rhoads were capable of, their playing and innovative twin harmonies were near perfect with *no* bluffing, just polished musicians after years of gigging.

 
With all respect, the twin harmonies had to be better, or people would notice. Thin Lizzy did it better Wink
 
And I don't think that Kirk's solos are bluff - they're carefully put together from the various technical bits and pieces he got from his studies with Joe Satriani. granted, they're not perfect compositions, but they stand out a mile from many metal guitarists at the time - obviously you can't really compare him to Rhoads or Roth - but there's more than a nod or wink to Schenker.
 
I can't see why you don't appreciate Metallica's thrash-isms (as you put it) to be original - they're far more varied and inventive than Priest or Metal Church, and more coherent than Megadeth or Exodus (even if Mustaine did write half of them on "Kill 'Em All).


Edited by Certif1ed - May 16 2007 at 08:15
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:37
^ maybe you simply don't like the colors that Metallica introduced ... 
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Points: 848 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:38
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:


Metallica belong here - I've been saying this since I joined, and it's good to see that people who have actually thought about this rationally agree.
 

 

/edit: And when talking about bands at the root of Prog Metal, don't forget Judas Priest or the Scorpions - I'm not arguing for the inclusion of either, but both are at least as - if not more - significant than Iron Maiden.


I agree with you, Certif1ed! And also with MikeEnRegalia!
As a matter of fact the whole Master of Puppets and ...And Justice for All, with their long and complex songs (with plenty of intricate time signatures) do definitely belong in the ProgMetal section!
And also many tracks from Kill 'em all! and Ride the Lightning stand out from that point of view!

As a matter of fact, anyway, they haven't done anything prog-related since ...And Justice for All, in my opinion!

I would be a little more careful about Scorpions: the first two efforts of theirs, however, do contain elements of prog rock (especially the wonderful title track from Fly to the Rainbow)
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 05:42
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ maybe you simply don't like the colors that Metallica introduced ... 


Yes, perhaps so. They did progress, there's no doubt about it, especially as they matured.. but they didn't seem to have the cleverness and unique linear qualities Maiden had. maybe I'm just Anglocentric when it come to my metal.



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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 06:36
I haven't read all the posts here, but its a big YES!!! from me.

Edited by Snow Dog - May 16 2007 at 06:36
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2007 at 14:13
I was hearing MASTER OF PUPPETS yesterday... Mi views were totally confirmed.
 
battery - melodic thrash with a very very intricate, complex riff
 
masterof pupptes - need I say more? Length,, riffing, structure, melody
 
the thing that should not be - in the thrash world, such a HEAVY riff and song as this was new. This is one of the most pure HEAVY songs ever.
 
Sanitarium - structure, length, even tempo changes
 
Disposable heroes - such an underrated track. the riff is incredible, the dynamics, the change in speed, even some odd time signatures, that song BRED Death, DT and many more. Nobody pays attention to it. It amazed me yesterday.
 
Leper Messiah - well, this one sucks.....Big%20smile
 
Orion -need I say more? An 8 minute instrumental with quite a great, GREAT intro, how the bass is slowly joined by the drums and then THE monster riff, then the solos...PLEASE.... EVEN MASTER PETRUCCI wouldn't exist without this.
 
Damage Inc - the other flawed song, but NOT straight-forward thrash.
 
And don't get me started in And Justice for All (tomorrow I'll know better)
 
And I don't agree with the Black album not being progressive... Actually, in a weird way, it's the logical conclusion of all the progression of Metallica since Kill 'Em All, but achieving total conciseness.... All the riffs reduced to their perfect expression, all the multi-sections and dynamic changes reduced to their most punching, effective strength. Sorry, the BLACK album is thrash metal being de-thrashed and "proggesized" into a new, almost perfect in its effect, form of METAL.
 
Of course, if we talk about St. Anger....DeadLOL
 
As Cert1fied said, most of the negative answers have been : "NO", "Dead", "They suck"... the MUSICAL answers? Those that favor the YES.
 
Because, musically, there's no question about it.
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