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Prog-jester View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 03:07

^ Vartan, I hope you'll look thru determinations of Prog genres here and maybe give us a direction we all should go. What do you think about APPLE PIE's genre? I think your voice will be counted as the important one.

Vartan

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 06:02

May be you should add a new subgenre? Something like Neo-Sympho-Prog. I agree that our band should be wherever Spock's Beard is! But it's up to you guys. Make a desicion! That's great to be added on PA, no matter what you'd decide.

Good luck!

Edited by Vartan - April 09 2007 at 06:23

Apple Pie

Prog-jester View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 06:56

^That's what we utterly need

But from these 2 (Sympho and Neo) which is closer?

BTW, APPLE PIE's interview added!

Vartan

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 07:21

I think Sympho. Oh, thank you Igor for interview!

Edited by Vartan - April 09 2007 at 07:24

Apple Pie

Prog-jester View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 07:37

thanks in return for being in touch.

OK, dear Collabs, the band's leader considers his own music to be closer to Symphonic Prog than Neo. Yes, I understand that even Justin Timberlake can proclaim himself a RIO guru, but Vartan's opinion must be taken into consideration!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 11:59

Prog-jester wrote:

Igor, I have the most of respects for Apple Pie, but 99% (Just a way to say almost everyone) of the team leaders and members of Neo Prog bands say that their bands arre Symphonic, because Neo Prog has still an unfair negative connotation of bland Symphonic.

But in this case the call is from us, even you even wrote repeteadly that they are not Symphonic, a couple of months ago we received a mail from a guy named Chris Mellia asking for the inclusion of their band to Symphonic, but by mutual agreement of both teams his band ended in Neo Prog.

So please, this is not going to change what we listen, and I have heard the full songs that you sent me.

Iván

Prog-jester View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 12:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

... and I have heard the full songs that you sent me.

Iván

Finally

OK, i give up. Then what? Neo Team rejects them as well and a Prog band appears in Related? Well, THE AMBER LIGHT is still there, so go on...

All I need is patience I guess. Sorry, if I seem to be rude - I'm tired a bit.

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 12:12

Without trying to sound like I am insulting the Symph Team,it seems like if a band doesn't fit the Yes/Genesis,etc mold EXACTLY they won't make it into that genre.

I think Apple Pie would fit well in either Neo or Art Rock Igor.This issue should be resolved quickly,because if you listen to this band they are a slam dunk for inclusion.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 16:47

TheProgtologist wrote:

Without trying to sound like I am insulting the Symph Team,it seems like if a band doesn't fit the Yes/Genesis,etc mold EXACTLY they won't make it into that genre.

This is not true my friend, and will give you some examples:

Arter Crying or Karda Estra sound much closer to any Folk band than too Genesis or Yes, but the structure is Symphonic
Kansas has a lot of hard Rock and sounds nothing like Genesis or Yes, some people still believe they should not be in Symphonic but in Prog Related, we don't.
Echolyn sounds clearly closer to Gentle Giant than to Yes or Genesis but they have a Symphonic structure.
Triana or Abedul sound closer to Flamenco than to Yes or Genesis but you can listen the Symphonic background
Alter Echo blends Symphonic influences with Jethro Tull and The Beatles
Deja Vou is a mixtrure of everything has a bit of Neo, New Wave, mainstream all mixed with Keith Emerson's sound
In Spe is a Symphonic and Fusion blend
Par Lindh Project is inspired in late Medieval moe than Classical or Barioque, but it's among our key bands.
Steve Hackett blends from Symphonic to Avant Garde, crossing Jazz, Acoustoic and classical, sounds nothing as Genesis.
Anima Domini is one of the mosr eclectic bands in Prog Archives, includes Fusion passages with a lot of Brazilian ethnic sounds and a lot of Keith Emerson, but we copnsider them preeminently Symphonic.
Aphrodite's Child was in Folk since the site was formed but both Sean and my team agreed the main structire of 66 and the spirit of the previous albums was clsoer to Symphonic

You should visit our genre before saying things like this, if 5% of the bands in Symphonic are barely close to Genesis or Yes is too much.

I could give you at least 300 examples of bands that sound nothing like Classic Symphonic, but I believe with 12 is more than enough.

If we don't accept Apple Pie is because we believe it's not a Symphonic bands, sounds myuch closer to Neo Prog IOHO.

TheProgtologist wrote:

I think Apple Pie would fit well in either Neo or Art Rock Igor.This issue should be resolved quickly,because if you listen to this band they are a slam dunk for inclusion.

That's not our call, we only say if it's Symphonic or not according to us, three members have heard the band, three members have voted unanymously that it's not Symphonic.

We believe also by unanymous vote that Apple Pie is a Neo Prog band but we can't force or place preasure on any team if we want the same courtesy to us, so we leave this to the team members.

Thanks

Iván

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 17:25

I submit that your definition of symphonic does not reflect the PA public's definition of symphonic, and that Apple Pie should be included in symphonic, as per just about everyone who's 1) posted in this thread, 2) heard the entire album, 3) is a member of the band, 4) isn't you. To say that, say, Spock's are symph, but Apple Pie are not... what exactly is this heresy? Ouch

If Spock's were classified as neo-prog, I would certainly have no objections, but in this circumstance... Confused

Also: Steve Hackett, symphonic? Would've figured his discography to be a sure-fire shoe-in for Art Rock.. shows what I know, eh?

Edited by Man Overboard - April 09 2007 at 17:27

Vartan

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 17:50

Iván. If I sad that my music closer to Sympho, it not means that I don't want to be in Neo. It's OK! May be it's simply my inner wish. Sympho is not the point.

I hope you guys will make a right decision, no matter if it's Neo or Sympho.

Apple Pie

bhikkhu

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 18:03

Man Overboard wrote:

I submit that your definition of symphonic does not reflect the PA public's definition of symphonic, and that Apple Pie should be included in symphonic, as per just about everyone who's 1) posted in this thread, 2) heard the entire album, 3) is a member of the band, 4) isn't you. To say that, say, Spock's are symph, but Apple Pie are not... what exactly is this heresy? Ouch

If Spock's were classified as neo-prog, I would certainly have no objections, but in this circumstance... Confused

Also: Steve Hackett, symphonic? Would've figured his discography to be a sure-fire shoe-in for Art Rock.. shows what I know, eh?

From what I heard, it just sounds more like a Neo band than a Symphonic one. It has nothing to do with Spock's Beard, or any of the classic symph bands. I take each case individually. I thinks it is ridiculous to use the argument that they must go where Spock's Beard is. Just because they have a similar sound, does not mean they have the same structure. It is also not as if they have any affiliation. Listen to it on it's own merits.

a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com

Man Overboard View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 18:16

From hearing the entire album several times, I actually thought they sounded proggier and more fitting in symphonic than Spock's... Embarrassed

We could all go 'round and 'round on this issue for all eternity, but I suppose what's important is getting them on the archives period... our genre labels, overall, are a bit of a mess...

Edited by Man Overboard - April 09 2007 at 18:18

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 09 2007 at 21:03

Vartan wrote:

Iván. If I sad that my music closer to Sympho, it not means that I don't want to be in Neo. It's OK! May be it's simply my inner wish. Sympho is not the point.

I hope you guys will make a right decision, no matter if it's Neo or Sympho.

Vartan, my last comment is not a reply to your very nice post, it has to do with a comment of another member (Who we respect very much( saying we only add bands that sound like Genesis or Yes to Symphonic,

I thank you for being here and worrying about your band, I received a PM from another musician asking to add his band, but despite I have sent him 5 or 6 mails and several PM's (He's also a member of PA) without a single reply, I can't do anything to add him if he doesn't help.

I thank you and wish all the band members did as you, it makes our job easier having you here to ask you anything and to provide a bio when we ask them.

Thank you Vartan.

Man Overboard wrote:

To say that, say, Spock's are symph, but Apple Pie are not... what exactly is this heresy? Ouch

I will explain with an example, at least 10 or 20 bands in Neo Prog sound like Genesis, they are inspired in Gensis, their keyboardists try to sound like Tony Banks, but they are Neo Prog.

As a fact it's very common in Neo Prog bands to sound as Genesis being that this band was the main inspiration for this sub-genre.

Sounding like other band doesn't necessarilly make a band belong in the same genre as the one they follow.

Man Overboard wrote:

Also: Steve Hackett, symphonic? Would've figured his discography to be a sure-fire shoe-in for Art Rock.. shows what I know, eh?

When as a team we took the decision to move Steve Hackett to Symphonic, we published the movement for two weeks in the Collaborators Section as we do each time we change a band, to receive feedback, positive r negative, in some cases we gave a step back..

We received at least 10 replies about Steve Hackett and exposed our arguments basing us in the structure of MOST of the PROG albums recorded during his long career and there were no objections at the end, please don't make us start this again.

Man Overboard wrote:

I submit that your definition of symphonic does not reflect the PA public's definition of symphonic,

Our definition of Symnphonic is Prog Archives definition, mainly because I wrote PA's definition of Symphonic (After two months of being published and accepted by all Collaborators and Adms) plus believe it or not; we have heard each and every band that is in Symphonic taking special care of what is added and what not.

Bob and myself are obsessive so we care for each addition as it was a matter of life or death and HT has managed to have at least one album of each and every band in Symphonic, some in plastic CD and others in legal downloads (Also obsessive)

HT, Bob and myself have written the bios of 150 bands of the genre (The most rare ones that were added without any bio), we had to research God knows where, so we are absolutely informed of what happens here and what frames we follow.

Geck0 is in the band submission team and gives us valuable aid, specially in the recently added bands, so we are very careful with the additions because cleaning the sub-genre has taken us a lot of time and effort.

Man Overboard wrote:

our genre labels, overall, are a bit of a mess.

People complains of how everything is a mess (I don't agree, I believe the teams are doing a great job) but due to the job of our team we have managed to put order in Symphonic (Which was the dumping ground of Prog Archives), we have moved Folk, Fusion, Neo Prog, Avant and Prog Metal bands (Accepted by their teams) also helped with Raf and Micky to make of Art Rock a central category, almost every band in Symphonic has a decent bio, a photo, no missing links (Except the ones that really don't exist) and the most important issue, we are familiar with every band in the sub-genre.

So at least in our case, it's not a mess, we want to keep it like this.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 09 2007 at 21:10

Teaflax

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Posted: April 10 2007 at 16:57

Again, a quick visit, and I say the below only slightly tongue in cheek, but will leave it at that as I have no wish to get into an argument, but simply to make what I think is an obvious point that you all seem to be avoiding:

There really is an easy solution to this: create a new subgenre. Both SB and Apple Pie would fit quite comfortably together in one because of their clear influences from mainstream American radio rock and early Classic Hard Rock. I'm not saying that to denigrate either band (I actually kind of enjoy Apple Pie), but to note that there are some clear connections between the two (and many other modern Prog bands) that set them apart from the Symphonic sub-genre even if you include Kansas in it.

However, they're also quite distinctly not Neo as defined by Marillion, Pallas, Pendragon, IQ and others.

Call it what you will (I think Modern Symphonic works, even if I like to say AOR Prog), but do consider creating the sub genre.

During my discussions in Gothenburg last weekend after having been to see The Musical Box, it was obvious to me that many old-skool proggers had tried to wander back to Prog only to be scared off by SB, TFK and others, as what they do really is a completely different beast altogether. So it really would do everyone a favor, clarifying an important distinction and reducing the possibility of disappointment and confusion.

bhikkhu

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Posted: April 10 2007 at 17:20

Teaflax wrote:

Again, a quick visit, and I say the below only slightly tongue in
cheek, but will leave it at that as I have no wish to get into an
argument, but simply to make what I think is an obvious point that you
all seem to be avoiding:

There really is an easy solution to this: create a new subgenre. Both
SB and Apple Pie would fit quite comfortably together in one because of
their clear influences from mainstream American radio rock and early
Classic Hard Rock. I'm not saying that to denigrate either band (I
actually kind of enjoy Apple Pie), but to note that there are some
clear connections between the two (and many other modern Prog bands)
that set them apart from the Symphonic sub-genre even if you include Kansas in it.

However, they're also quite distinctly not Neo as defined by Marillion, Pallas, Pendragon, IQ and others.

Call it what you will (I think Modern Symphonic works, even if I like to say AOR Prog), but do consider creating the sub genre.

During my discussions in Gothenburg last weekend after having been to
see The Musical Box, it was obvious to me that many old-skool proggers
had tried to wander back to Prog only to be scared off by SB, TFK and
others, as what they do really is a completely different beast
altogether. So it really would do everyone a favor, clarifying an
important distinction and reducing the possibility of disappointment
and confusion.

That is a good point. These bands are different than most of what is considered symphonic. The AOR influence is strong.

Welcome back Teflax!

You've been away too long.

a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 10 2007 at 22:42

The problem is how we understand AOR:

1.- If AOR is considered as Album Oriented Rock in strict sense, then Prog is part of AOR and this kind of bands are 100% Prog..

2.- If AOR is that Frankenstein of the late 70's and all 80's that is also music created for album format but essentially mainstream, then the band is Prog Related at the most.

I believe Apple Pie is 100% Prog, but we don't believe it fits best in Symphonic.

Lets keep Kansas outside this debate, Kansas is a classic Prog band formed in 1971, using basic Symphonic structures but blended with Hard Rock and Country, long before nything we know as AOR was even born.

Now, talking with HT and only if we implement a Symphonic School that admits lighter forms of Symphonic and the team agrees, we may be able to accept Apple Pie, but this is in plans yet, probably in a month we will be able to decide...in the meanwhile, I leave that decision to Art Rock and Neo.

Iván