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Raff ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
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OK, I suppose it's better to close this thread for the time being, and move the discussion to the thread of the same title to be found in the Collabs zone. This doesn't mean that we want to cut off from the debate those who are not Collabs - it means simply that the issue has become the prerogative of two genre teams, so I don't see the point in flooding the main forum with our differences.
I'd like to add a personal reflection at the end of this post, one directed to ALL Collabs. The section called Artists/Bands Under Evaluation is not a merely decorative one, but serves the function of discussing possible additions amongst us Collabs. However, if suggestions for addition have to be discussed primarily via PM, perhaps we might think about scrapping that section altogether - at present, it seems that Collabs are exempted from visiting it, though it takes up precious web space all the same. |
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
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there is a thread in the collab section for this... I'd love to hear your thoughts, especially since Ivan said you thought he belongs in Art Rock. Which I guess I disagree with...quite passionately ![]() ![]() the thread should probably be closed and the discussion resumed in the collab section since the admins are taking this up. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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ClemofNazareth ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Folk Researcher Joined: August 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4659 |
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If this thread were being propgated by anyone other than a bunch of collaborators, it would have already been closed for veering off course and becoming more a battle of wills and personalities, and less an objective discussion of the original topic.
I wasn't going to get involved but the symphonic team is being called into question, and my name has been mentioned twice, so if this gets moved I'll share my thoughts: otherwise, I'll see some of you in PM. |
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus |
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65682 |
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Sorry I spoke too soon on this. I'm going to keep my head down till I hear his stuff-- should have some later today. Perhaps this discussion should be moved to the CZ..?
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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
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getting on the topic at hand which is Jon Lord... by the way, kudos for HT for seeing the obvious here.
hmmm... since there is no objection to the obvious symphonic prog of the Gemini Suite and Windows.. let me address the album which seems to be the problem here... and recommend you listen before you judge.. which is something a team..especially a team leader should do. Founder member of Deep Purple, keyboard player Jon Lord needs little introduction to rock audiences. Yet classical music had been a huge part of his musical education, and echoes of his love for the genre imbued the early Deep Purple albums. His interest was then channeled into a series of classical/rock experiments which lasted throughout the seventies. They began with the famous Concerto For Group Orchestra (released in 1970), followed by the studio project Gemini Suite in 1971. A third attempt to further the cause was the experimental Windows album in 1974, and the series culminated in 1976 with the subject of this reissue, the superb Sarabande, issued just as the band Deep Purple were on the verge of splitting. Purple Records was the original home of most of these albums, and Sarabande is the first of their collectors editions, digitally enhanced and in its original sleeve.
Edited by micky - March 31 2007 at 04:47 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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bhikkhu ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
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I don't recall any lack of feedback. ![]() |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Just to add, just checked the opínions of Jon's fan site and also describe Sarabande as a Classical/Rock/Jazz Fusion.......again, no mention of Prog:
If we believe his music is Prog (I believe it's more than related after listening again most of his albums), a Classical, Rock, Jazz, World Music combination is not Symphonic.
If you believe as I that his work is Prog, the right place is Art Rock, if you don't believe it's 100% Prog, then his place is Prog Related..
BTW: Manticornio, one of the most reliable prog sites in Spanish says about Jon:
Later he mentions Prog fans may like his music but never mentions he plays Prog music.
None of this reliable Prog sites mentions Jon Lord:
Most reliable sites don't even mention him, so again his Prog credentials are weak. Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 30 2007 at 23:05 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Well Raf, GEPR doesn't mention him neither Progressive Ears.com, so his Progcredentials are doubious at least. We must not identify orchestra with Symphonic, I have voted for Art Rock but I see him in Prog Related as well because Neo Classical with some Prog elements is not necesarilly Symphonic.
I believe that in the case of Jon Lord, there are many other components, from mainstream to Rock and Jazz plus the obvious Neo Classical.
And BTW: It's not lack of feedback I WAS NEVER NOTIFIED ABOUT KEITH EMERSON'S INCLUSION, AND IT'S EASY TO FIND MY PM.
If I had been notified, I would have asked a member of the team r checked personally his music to decide.
When we receive a notification about a new artist or want to change one, but don't believe he/she/they belong in Symph, we notify by PERSONAL MESSAGE the team leader of the genre we believe they belong, we don't wait for him/her to check the posts because we understand they have other duties,
If that team says no, we keep them and don't even say anything in the forum, we have bands rejected by Neo Prog, Fusion and even Art Rock that we have here because nobody else wants them, that's part of the game we can't do anything else.
We can't manage to analyze each and every band added to the master list, we did it once (At Tony's request) and if you remember (You were part of Symph Team then), we added 24 bands in one week and only 3 were Symphonic.
Being that seems you're unhappy with Keith in Art Rock, I will PM Fragile to check him and make a report.
If we checked all the addition threads, we couldn't had managed the cleaning, the 150 biographies, the 200 photos found God knows how, and to start our actual project because we would be searching for each and every band proposed..
Since we had to start all over again and make biographies of bands we had never listened before. When we asked for collaboration of the members, nobody had listened them before, because most were very obscure band that some guy added when the doors where opened for everybody, that had released a cassette in 1979 or a self edited album with 200 copies sold in the pubs they played in, and even bands without a single album released we double and triple check
Now we are setremely careful with what bands we admit because we don't want this to hapen again, a good example was Er. J. Orchestra, it was sold to us as 100% Symphonic, we checked it. asked for feedback in the forum (Nobody knew what to do with them because they had a bit of everything but not coplex enough for Art Rock despite we had two full albums to download(
At the end Er J Orchestra was sent to Prog Related. If we had opened the doors they would be in Symphonic and honestly, I have my doubts about if they are even Prog Related now.
We have added almost every biography but still we have 5 or 6 without any information availlable, er have searched hours, days and weeks, Micky is witness, he must be still searching for some information about a band named Wally.
We are willing to help, but we have a lot of work to do, if we receive complete info, samples a short bio as reference (we write our own bios normally) and a web site to chevck (In our alphabet better
![]() PLEASE PM US
Iván
BTW: Checked http://www.classyclassical.com/2006/07/19/jon-lord/ you proposed (Had already checked it when Micky sent me the PM), and didn't helped a bit, foir them Jon Lord is CLASSICAl and nothing else.
This means Prog Related at the most, but I d0on't fully agree with the author, I believe he has some Rock and Jazz elements.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 31 2007 at 02:16 |
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Raff ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
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Just a couple of comments to what Bilek wrote a few posts ago:
- The AR Team is NOT particularly "ready to accomodate every single out-of-place style/subgenre" - the truth is, we have had no choice so far. We have been trying in vain to implement a name change that would make it clearer to site users what the category (NOT subgenre) is about, but not being the owners there is very little we can do in the face of opposition from other Collabs. As a matter of fact, we'd very much like to see our category become something other than the site's dumping ground, or at least to give it some semblance of order; - Prog-Related as a category exists on other sites than PA: namely, on ProgGnosis, who have one of the biggest databases on the web, and are much more catholic than us in admitting artists to it (they have Stevie Winwood in PR - great artist, though his solo output is neither prog nor prog-related). As to Jon Lord's prog credentials, check this entry from the aforementioned ProgGnosis: http://www.proggnosis.com/MUSIC_DBArtist.asp?txtArtistID=1412 Same applies to another artist that was added to Art Rock because of lack of feedback from the Symphonic Team: http://www.proggnosis.com/MUSIC_DBArtist.asp?txtArtistID=825 I also think that having a look at that would help: http://www.classyclassical.com/2006/07/19/jon-lord/ These are just examples of Jon Lord's credentials as a fully prog artist and of his extremely strong ties with classical music - one of the main components of Symphonic Prog. |
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Bilek ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 05 2005 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1484 |
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^^
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
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bhikkhu ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
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I guess I am the lone team member that thinks this could possibly fit in Symphonic, but Art will work too. However, we all now agree that it belongs in a proper prog genre.
I am curious. Why hasn't Jon Lord been here all along? |
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Bilek ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 05 2005 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1484 |
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I can send you (along with the rest of the Art-Rock team...) samples of both albums if you need, but if you want to buy an original CD, I'd suggest you to start with Sarabande first...
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
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The Whistler ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 30 2006 Location: LA, CA Status: Offline Points: 7113 |
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Okay, not only is Johnny boy "pretty f**kin' metal," but he also worked in a band with Ritchie Blackmore who worked in a band with Ian Anderson.
Metal...related to Ian...we shouldn't add him to the archives; we should build him a SHRINE!!!
Don't make me bring up Dio now...
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65682 |
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micky seems enthusiastic about Lord, guys, so I don't see it being a big problem. From all the good things I've been hearing, I want to pick up Gemini Suite or Sarabande myself..
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Bilek ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 05 2005 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1484 |
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^^ All I can say is to agree with your hope!
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Ok Bilek, I understand your point, just a few comments:
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 30 2007 at 01:22 |
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bhikkhu ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 06 2006 Location: A² Michigan Status: Offline Points: 5109 |
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I'm checking out now. So far I can say that I wouldn't put him in related. Will have my full opinion later.
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Bilek ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: July 05 2005 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1484 |
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Sorry for being misunderstood; when I talked about (-) attitude towards blues based bands, I meant "concerning their inclusion in progarchigves", and obviously I was wrong about Doors etc.! (what I had in mind was The Who in the first place!)
A band, which had its root it blues might as well be symphonic: please consider the first albums of this "Holy Trinity": Yes, Genesis, King Crimson! Yes' debut is not even prog in its own right; it's psychedelia flavoured R&B! Neither "From Genesis to Revelation" album is conidered full blown prog by many; as for the genuine prog album ItCotCK, it has at least 3 ballads, which are all bluesy! It is the innovative use of mellotrone and some other instruments which made the album groundbreaking!
I really don't want to start that lousy argument again, but I need to mention a couple of things:
- I totally agree that Santana was (i.e. used to be!) a psychedelic band, which turned out to be a fusion act afterwards, and released the majority of their output in this vein! Santana's self-titled first three albums are really West-Coast psychedelia, with a heavy dose of Latin folk elements, yet, their "progressiveness" is dubious.
However, right after Santana (a.k.a Santana 3) starting with Caravansarai, Santana's direction turned greatly towards fusion; to the extent that the legendary jazz guitarist McLaughlin guested in a number of their tracks -not to mention the very album made in collaboration with McLaughlin himself and a good number of members from Mahavishnu Orchestra!- and sorry to say, there are almost no traces of psychedelia in this album and the ones that followed (apart from live albums, which included tracks from first 3, of course!), so you'll have to live with the fact that Santana belongs to Jazz-Rock category!
- I really don't remember Santana's addition ever becoming an issue in our team, I believe it was already added by Sean (rightfully) to Jazz-Rock, and he darn well explained the reasons in the related threads! If ever Santana's addition into Jazz-Rock subgenre had been denied, we would have considered their inclusion in our team's scope, and probably voted yes! (just for the sake of first 3 albums...)
- I don't really know what Eetu and chamberry thinks on the issue, but I, for my part, would never have a negative attitude towards Santana, in fact, I would have been among the first ones to defend their inclusion into PA, had any serious objections ever been raised!!!
OK, now you got a point here... I seem to be getting the answer to my ultimate question! The problem then would be whether "Neo-Classical" could be considerd as a subgenre or type of "prog-rock" or not! (and whether Neo Classical is recognised as a subgenre, such as prog-rock, art-rock, fusion, canterbury, karutrock, electronica etc. by authorities in the field, such as AMG...)
In any case, I'm giving Caesar to what is Caesar's, and admit your right here...
(P.S. I never said Lord was a Blues oriented artist anyway! what I meant was that his works, just like the ones he did earlier with Deep Purple, relied -at least partly- on blues, like the majority of the works in the Rock scene in general... Yet, the obvious "Classical" connection bring his compositions elsewhere, and that place is probably "Neo-Classical" as mentioned above)
You don't have a negative attitude towards listening to their music, my friend, I supposed you had a (-) attitude towards adding them into PA, notably in the alraedy overblown Symphonic subgenre, and sorry if my assumption is false!
Admitted above... The problem now is, to which one of these classifications Jon Lord actually belongs to
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I admit your problems you encountered in cleaning up the genre, that's one thing I already mentioned in this thread the day I called your name
![]() ![]() Blues bands are not symphonic, indeed! Neither are they Prog, they are "Blues"!!! But if you're talking about bands which have their roots, at least partly, in Blues, you have to consider other characteristics which define their music, just consider the "three big ones" I mentioned above!
As for "Prog-Related" subgenre, it only seems to be an innovation of progarchives, added rightfully to accomodate bands which have obvious progressive rock characteristics (at least in a handful of albums or tracks...). No such subgenre exists in the real world! E.g., look at Iron Maiden and Asia, for heaven's sake! No serious music guide lists them as "prog related"; in fact, Maiden is the key band in the development of New Wave of British Heavy Metal, and Asia is widely recognized as AOR, if not labeled as Prog/Art-Rock just for the sake of the previous works of its individual members (in which case I don't agree anyway). I didn't make an extensive research, but I believe almost all bands in PA's prog-related bands list might fit in another subgenre of rock (other than prog, notably Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, AOR, Folk etc.), possibly a handful being already labeled by AMG as "Prog/Art-Rock" or "Fusion" because of some obvious connections...
Don't misunderstand me, I totally agree with the existence of this subgenre in PA... What I'm saying is, this is just a way of promoting bands which are not prog themselves, but somehow released at least one prog album in their life, or have some characteristics in their music that an average proghead might (and most probably, will) like...
If I got it right, that is, Lord is seriously being considerd for Art-Rock, that will settle all the gobbledygook going on above
![]() ![]() And that's great news, btw!
P.S.: all my initail concern was that Symphonic Team's territory was too crowded for hosting Lord, so Art-Rock team should've dealt with it! And your P.D. (P.S?) seems to confirm it, so no problem at all!!!
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Listen to Turkish psych/prog; you won't regret:
Baris Manco,Erkin Koray,Cem Karaca,Mogollar,3 Hürel,Selda,Edip Akbayram,Fikret Kizilok,Ersen (and Dadaslar) (but stick with the '70's, and 'early 80's!) |
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Ivan_Melgar_M ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Bilek wrote:
I will thank you not to make assumptions that are false Bilek, I have nothing against Blues based rock, as a fact I was one of the first, (if not the first) to ask for the inclusion of The Doors in Prog Archives because I believe they were a Psychedelic band (If I remember well your team opposed to that), by the contrary, I received some negative feedback in the case of The Doors as when I supported the inclusion of Iron Maiden. If I don’t add Blues based bands to Symphonic Prog is because BLUES BASED ROCK IS NOT SYMPHONIC PROG, something that is obvious. I didn’t accuse your team of having a negative attitude against Santana because you didn’t accepted their inclusion in Psychedelic despite ecerybody knows they were part of the San Francisco Psyche movement, simply understood (but disagreed) that you don’t believe Santana was a Psyche band. As a fact I don’t believe Jon Lord is essentially a Blues oriented artist either, I believe his albums are closer to Neo Classical, so your comment is totally out of place. Just to finish, Deep Purple, Jon Lord, The Who, Mountain, etc are among my favorite bands so please don’t say I have a negarive attitude against any kind of Rock because it’s false, you should inform yourself better before making this kind ofstatements. As a team we take care of what is added to Symphonic, but not adding a band because they don’t belong in Symphonic, doesn’t mean we have a negative attitude against anybody, they may belong in other sub-genre or simply be excelent bands that simply are not Prog.
We can wonder for years, but the fact is that PROG RELATED exists. But lets imagine what could had happened. Before PR was added to Prog Archives, the bands that were not 100% Prog were placed in Art Rock as most Prog places do still, so that would had been the solution.
We had to clean Symphonic and move 156 bands because many people thought like you, “If they don’t fit anywhere, lets send them to Symphonic” so at the end we had 519 bands from which almost 33% were Neo Prog, Folk, Art Rock, Prog Related and even Prog Metal and Avant Garde, without mentioning 4 or 5 New Age bands that were moved to Prog Related. I don’t believe Blues bands are Symphonic, so I won’t add them to the genre, as I wouldn’t add Los Jaivas or Henry Cow but doesn’t mean I have a negative attitude against them, just that they belong in Prog Folk and RIO in each case. Iván
PD: Being 20:21 received Bob's (ClemofNazareth) vote, he goes for Art Rock. Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 28 2007 at 21:21 |
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