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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2005 at 12:14
^ exactly. So 7/4 should also be simple time.
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Badabec View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2005 at 16:34
Originally posted by penguindf12 penguindf12 wrote:

I've been making it my duty to absorb as many time signatures as possible. I'll now sit down with an instrument and start playing in 5/4, 11/8, 13/8, and 7/8 just as likely as I would play in 4/4. You just tap out the time. You can usually feel the divisions, it just comes to you. They really aren't hard. Harder is shifting meter, virtually impossible to follow even for a seasoned time tapper. Only by slowing it down and building from square one can you figure those out.


Same thing with me.

He's right, just believe him.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 20 2005 at 16:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by maidenrulez maidenrulez wrote:

Is there something as a 29/16 time signature? I never heard about it but i belivie Mr Jon Theodore of TMV used that once...

29 = 16 + 13.

=> 4/4 + 13/16, and 13/16 is 6/8 + 1/16.

The question is: Why would he use such a signature? The weirder the signature, the more difficult it is for the artist to reason for the use of it. 29/16 seems to me like "let's try to impress the listener and use the most complex signatures".

Sometimes less definitely is more ...



Why shouldn't you use a 29/16?

I've written a song with a part in 17/16.

It's not just the time signature which is important for a good sound, it's more the rhythm and the melody.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2005 at 01:25
Man I just started picking up on the world of abstract rhythms and time signatures. It's freaking amazing . I'm finally starting to understand songs like "Starless and Bible Black" and "By-Tor the Snow Dog" and being able to apply it to my own playing.

I think this entire thread has answered the majority of my thoughts on this topic. Yet I'm still puzzled by what are "traditional" or "non-traditional" ways to play certain compound time signatures.


I think my only question is if anybody has seen a time signature like 7/10 or 16/9...and what do those denominators represent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2005 at 03:35

Originally posted by Soulman Soulman wrote:

Man I just started picking up on the world of abstract rhythms and time signatures. It's freaking amazing . I'm finally starting to understand songs like "Starless and Bible Black" and "By-Tor the Snow Dog" and being able to apply it to my own playing.

I think this entire thread has answered the majority of my thoughts on this topic. Yet I'm still puzzled by what are "traditional" or "non-traditional" ways to play certain compound time signatures.


I think my only question is if anybody has seen a time signature like 7/10 or 16/9...and what do those denominators represent.

Those time signatures are "impossible" with the traditional notation system:

1/1 represents a Semibreve

1/2 represents a Minim

1/4 represents a Crotchet

1/8 represents a Quaver

1/16 represents a Semiquaver

 

...and so on.

 

The current (ancient) system used in Western Music splits beats from the Semibreve, or whole note, as it is bizarrely known, and treats other note lengths as fractions of Semibreves.

So the top number is the number of beats in a bar, and the bottom number represents the length of the beat in terms of fractions of a Semibreve.

The dividing line can be seen as the mathematical symbol for division - e.g. 4/4 is 4 "quarter" beats per bar.

This attempt to explain everything (including why 7/4 is simple time and 7/8 is compound time) - but still leaves a lot of questions unanswered: http://www.answers.com/topic/time-signature#copyright

 

However, I think the system itself is confusing, misleading, misunderstood - even by academics - and not appropriate for the way that people write music these days.

 

If the system was changed to a decimalised notation, and a multiplier used instead of a divider, then you could have 4X0.25 instead of 4/4, which would open up the use of dotted crotchets as beats in their own right, instead of the current limited use of dotted crotchets in compound time. So 4 dotted crotchets in a bar could be represented by 4X0.375.

Doesn't really trip off the tongue like 12/8, does it?

But really, the whole system should be overhauled, IMO, so the the Breve regains its proper status as 1, and every other note is a fraction of that - ie, a crotchet should really be 1/8, not 1/4.

As it currently stands, a SEMIbreve represents a whole note, purely because common time became more widely accepted as groupings of semibreve bars rather than breve bars, which were felt to be too long for quick music, which was more popular outside the church.

 

/ends ramble and hopes it's useful...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2005 at 09:12
Hope no one reams me...

Anyway...

I write riffs and stuff in various signatures, I'll often come up with something that sounds cool, record it, and then count it out by listening back.

Tool use a lot of different time signatures in their music, the track The Grudge for instance switches between 5/8, 5/4, and 6/4 at various places. Learning the song though is just a case of counting in 5/4 and adding crotchets in certain places - even though it is notated differently.

Here is a riff that I came up with recently as an exercise...


Download One
Download Two

Stars off in 7/8 for two bars, then a bar of 8/8, and a final bar of 7/8 before looping again. Count it out if it'll help you understand.

For rock music it really is just down to the ability to count the beats you're working in. If you're writing in 10/4, try splitting it up in various ways. You don't even have to stick with splitting it into 5/4 or 6/4 + 4/4.

When notating things, it's pretty important to stick to conventions. But when composing and when coming up with ideas, you can go anywhere. 10/4 to me might be 5/4 twice, but to someone else they might count it as 4/4 + 3/4 + 2/4 - if it helps them play in 10/4, then I see no problem with it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2007 at 14:11
Wow such a great thread. It deserves a bump.
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rileydog22 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2007 at 02:34
Originally posted by Soulman Soulman wrote:

Man I just started picking up on the world of abstract rhythms and time signatures. It's freaking amazing . I'm finally starting to understand songs like "Starless and Bible Black" and "By-Tor the Snow Dog" and being able to apply it to my own playing.

I think this entire thread has answered the majority of my thoughts on this topic. Yet I'm still puzzled by what are "traditional" or "non-traditional" ways to play certain compound time signatures.


I think my only question is if anybody has seen a time signature like 7/10 or 16/9...and what do those denominators represent.


If I'm not mistaken, you can have denominators that are not powers of two, but you have to tuplet the hell out of the thing to make it work.  You can write it out much easier in normal denominators. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2007 at 02:40
Question: can we all just skip that and enjoy the music?
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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 31 2007 at 03:44
For many of us analyzing these things is a big part of the enjoyment.Smile
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rileydog22 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2007 at 22:33
I find the distinction between different denominators to be a matter of perception/notation; I may count a semibrive (or "whole note" to normal folks) as half the length of semibreve, and thus have a different denominator than you.  The only time that that length is standardized is on sheet music.  So when I just sit down and listen to, say, Tubular Bells, the opening could be counted as 15/16 or 15/8 or 15/2, depending on how I count my whole notes.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2007 at 13:37
^^ Got a point. I don't know if it's because I'm rubbish at understanding time signatures, but I can sometimes listen to something an can give it multiple time signatures, just different counting. LOL
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