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eugene 
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 Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:26 |
Yeah, to call progmetal "soulless" is incorrect, often the pm vocalists put so much of their soul to it, it can be really over the top....
"...this place is full of souls but all of them are shallow.... "
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carefulwiththataxe
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kazansky
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:29 |
i don't understand what makes prog metal sounds 'souless' than metal 
having great technique also need feelings too, music is played with both skills and feelings, and that goes for every genre, at least in prog music IMO...
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The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us.
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Logan
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 12:51 |
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Generally I'd say that the biggest problem with Prog Metal is the metal. I find too much of it pretentious, ugly, and shallow. However, there are some bands I like, and I appreciate the metal influence in several modern non-metal Prog bands.
But live and let live; to each his or her own.
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Guests
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 13:22 |
I loved that comment about how someone would like this group if they didn't sound like themselves & loving a singer if he sang like someone else. That atitude comes out often - I'd if they sounded different. Anyway, the term prog metal on this site is a very wide desciption. Some vocals are influenced by Sesame Street's Cookie Monster, some by Trent Rezner's work, & some by Pavorotti (excuse the mispelling, please). The first & last I too often find grating. I actually picked up Queensryche's first album at a second hand shop not long after it had come out. The music was good enough, but Tate's voice, for all of its' amazing range, turned me off. Rather like the vocal gymnastics we hear repeatedly on shows like American Idol (no comparison meant), the guitar counterpart would a guitarist always displaying his entire catalogue of techniques on a continuing basis. Rob Halford used to cause the same reaction early in Judas Priest's career, until he roughened some of the edges & rationed the operatic "yelps". As for the compostions, well again, the variance is so wide that listening to Death, then Dream Theater, leaves one wondering why both can be included in the same subgenre. And I don't mean this to disparage either act. Both have their dedicated & well spoken fans here at PA. So, what is my problem with prog metal - currently , it's too much of everything. Too many chord changes, tempo shifts, notes per seconds or laments stretching under pressure to break apart, break down in depression or regress to repitition, So at this moment the subgenre is not the next one on my list to explore. P.S. as a caveat to the above, I love Motorhead & Tank & Pantera(Growling Johnny one shrieks), Some Judas Priest (Sad Wings of Destiny), Rush (hey let's write a 15 minute song with 8 distinct melodic passages), & Iron Maiden (Dickesonian Air Raid siren sounding off anyone), although I prefer Paul D'Ianno's period & Gentle Giant (complex contrapuntal choral works of instrumental madness, who's playing what - see the song Interview for the interplay). So I may just be arguing with my self 
Edited by pantacruelgruel - March 26 2007 at 13:27
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 13:42 |
 pantagruel wrote:
As for the compostions, well again, the variance is so wide that
listening to Death, then Dream Theater, leaves one wondering why both
can be included in the same subgenre
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That's because technically Prog Metal is not a sub genre ... it's a base genre just like Prog Rock.
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The T
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 15:56 |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 16:32 |
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I don't understand this soulless comment either... weird.
As for me, I am not the greatest fan of metal. I do like some prog-metal though and I tend to like the less pretentious and technically minded bands in the genre.
Bands such as Indukti (excellent band that are completely not soulless in any way), Pain of Salvation (who I've never felt were that metal anyhow), Opeth, Winds (although they're a bit too generic for my tastes), Tool, Riverside (although again, I don't feel their completely a metal band) and Agalloch.
Other bands who I like, that have metallic tendencies, include White Willow (especially their album Storm Season), Par Lindh Project (as some metallic guitar in places) and Deluge Grander.
Then there's post metal bands, like Bossk and Pelican, which sound different again.
All those doubters here have probably not tried all of the above bands. I don't like Dream Theater either, so I personally wouldn't recommend them as a starting point.
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Peter
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 17:13 |
pantacruelgruel wrote:
I loved that comment about how someone would like this group if they didn't sound like themselves & loving a singer if he sang like someone else. That atitude comes out often - I'd if they sounded different.
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They were my comments, and not so much indicative of any "attitude" as they were meant to illustrate (in a lighter fashion) how it's not the music that has the problem, but the listener.
 Let me try to explain that notion, please:
I simply wanted to reinforce my precept that not everything will appeal to everyone. For me to like prog metal (of the PM I've heard), it would have to sound greatly different. That is, it would have to lose the very elements that make it metal, because I don't like (modern) metal. In that transition, it would lose its original fan base, and it would no longer be itself.
Say you couldn't stand the taste of peanut butter. What would it take to make you like it? Either peanut butter would have to greatly change (and thus no longer really be peanut butter), or you'd need a new set of taste buds -- basically you'd have to become someone else.
Again, I'm just pointing out the obvious: not everyone will like everything, everything is not designed to appeal to everyone, and it is not even desirable that we all have the same tastes.
I have lived MY life to this point, and you have lived YOURS. That affects how we react to the world, and all that we encounter in it, including various forms of music. We bring ourselves to the art -- we can't help it. Our reactions may be divergent, but both "valid,'" both "right" for ourselves.
Thus the "problem" lies not with the music, but the listener. But it's not really a "problem, anyway, as it is a natural, even good thing that different things would appeal to different people, and evoke different reactions, in different people, humans being a varied lot.
So there's no "attitude," just me saying that I don't care for PM because I am who I am, and PM is what it is.
I don't like tattoos, or cotton candy, or wine, either -- but you may. No big mystery, and no problem.
Thus some may express what they hear as "soulless," but others may hear a lot of soul. Some find no beauty, some do. As long as they are judging the music when they day "soulless," and not judging you or other listeners for liking it, I don't see a big problem. You don't really need to understand their reaction, just accept that it need not be similar to yours to be "honest' and from the heart. I can't fairly argue with "I don't like it," but I can reasonably object to criticism that essentially says "you should not like it." (That whole "overrated" concept.)
Does that make sense?
Edited by Peter Rideout - March 26 2007 at 17:14
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 17:39 |
Yes -- much in line with my post, above.  We can quibble over the terminology others use (such as "soulless'), and ask them to clarify, but basically we can't expect THEM to be US. re the "soulless" thing I think it basically implies that the music does not move them -- it does not resonate with them. Some may get misty-eyed at the sound of a bagpipe, and hear their proud heritage in its lonely, haunting strains -- others, who might come from a time and place far different, may plug their ears, and hear a lot of monotonous, droning racket. Both reactions are valid, and honest. It's all in how you phrase that reaction; "i can't really relate to that -- it's not part of my heritage" likely won't offend the appreciative Scotsman. "That's just caterwauling noise, and only an in-bred, skirt-wearing idiot would think otherwise" likely would, and might even see you on the receiving end of a "Glasgow kiss." 
Edited by Peter Rideout - March 26 2007 at 22:10
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Gamemako
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 18:19 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ I don't understand it either ... as if *every* prog track was exceptionally emotional.
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You know, the thing that strikes me most here is that Pain of Salvation is the most crushingly emotional band I have ever encountered -- arguably too much so, even. There's no "soulless" to go around there. The Perfect Element practically bleeds emotion. So much so that it might easily be considered over-the-top silliness (it's not an unheard-of criticism for the band). Can't win for losing, you know? As for Vovin, well...  
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asimplemistake
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 19:29 |
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I agree with everything Peter Rideout said.
If I had to say it in my own words, the reason somebody probably wouldn't like progressive metal is that its sound is unfamiliar to them and they don't like the sound of it OR it's that they just haven't heard the stuff of prog metal that would appeal to them. I'm sure that theres a prog metal song out there for everyone...
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Atavachron
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 20:09 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
"i can't really relate to that -- it's not part of my heritage" likely won't offend the appreciative Scotsman. "That's just caterwauling noise, and only an in-bred, skirt-wearing idiot would think otherwise" likely would, and might even see you on the receiving end of a "Glasgow kiss." |
yeah, us Scots are forgiving but a wee sensitive..
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Arrrghus
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 20:19 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
pantacruelgruel wrote:
I loved that comment about how someone would like this group if they didn't sound like themselves & loving a singer if he sang like someone else. That atitude comes out often - I'd if they sounded different. |
They were my comments, and not so much indicative of any "attitude" as they were meant to illustrate (in a lighter fashion) how it's not the music that has the problem, but the listener.
Let me try to explain that notion, please:
I simply wanted to reinforce my precept that not everything will appeal to everyone. For me to like prog metal (of the PM I've heard), it would have to sound greatly different. That is, it would have to lose the very elements that make it metal, because I don't like (modern) metal. In that transition, it would lose its original fan base, and it would no longer be itself.
Say you couldn't stand the taste of peanut butter. What would it take to make you like it? Either peanut butter would have to greatly change (and thus no longer really be peanut butter), or you'd need a new set of taste buds -- basically you'd have to become someone else.
Again, I'm just pointing out the obvious: not everyone will like everything, everything is not designed to appeal to everyone, and it is not even desirable that we all have the same tastes.
I have lived MY life to this point, and you have lived YOURS. That affects how we react to the world, and all that we encounter in it, including various forms of music. We bring ourselves to the art -- we can't help it. Our reactions may be divergent, but both "valid,'" both "right" for ourselves.
Thus the "problem" lies not with the music, but the listener. But it's not really a "problem, anyway, as it is a natural, even good thing that different things would appeal to different people, and evoke different reactions, in different people, humans being a varied lot.
So there's no "attitude," just me saying that I don't care for PM because I am who I am, and PM is what it is.
I don't like tattoos, or cotton candy, or wine, either -- but you may. No big mystery, and no problem.
Thus some may express what they hear as "soulless," but others may hear a lot of soul. Some find no beauty, some do. As long as they are judging the music when they day "soulless," and not judging you or other listeners for liking it, I don't see a big problem. You don't really need to understand their reaction, just accept that it need not be similar to yours to be "honest' and from the heart. I can't fairly argue with "I don't like it," but I can reasonably object to criticism that essentially says "you should not like it." (That whole "overrated" concept.)
Does that make sense? |
Well said! Musical tastes are objective and beauty/quality/soul is relative.
Some people find Dream Theater to be souless, cold, and technique obsessed, and from their perspective, that makes sense to them. At the same time, some people (such as myself) find that DT can cover the whole emotional spectrum and can be very beautiful sometimes.
Same thing applies with RIO.
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Peter
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 23:04 |
^ Yes, I think there is no true, or total objectivity when it comes to the analysis and interpretation of art. Music involves "math" and "rules" it is true, in its patterns and dictated parameters and cultural conventions, but it is experienced and "comes to life" more through the 'heart" and emotions, than the brain and the intellect, I firmly believe. (That's not to say that complex music like prog has no intellectually-appealing aspects.) The final, vital component in the musical equation is a listener (appreciative or not), and each listener will be subtly -- or radically -- different from the next.
Tastes can evolve, change and grow over time, of course, but again, I think they tend to be more defined, and less mutable, as we age. I believe a necessary factor in "acquiring the taste" is an interest or willingness in the acquisition of that new taste. Sometimes, this interest could take the form of a respected or emulated "mentor" or peer, in other cases it could be circumstance.
For example, being in university, it was certainly in my interest to acquire a respect, appreciation and taste for the books I had to read, in order to get the degree I wanted, with the best possible grades, and the least amount of hardship. A respected professor could also lead me to view the literature in question in a new, more informed light, and thus help me to enjoy it.
A well-liked peer (or peers) can also lead us to "get into" something -- whether a form of fashion, music, or even something negative like smoking, theft, or violence.
If however, the required change asks too much of us, and goes strongly against our fundamental nature or moral code, then the "reward' of change in taste will not be deemed worth the price required. Obviously, as every army knows, it is easier to 'mould" others as we desire when they are young, and less fixed in their ways and will.
If I was constantly exposed to prog metal while in the company of people I loved and/or respected (or whom I thought were "cool"), then i might acquire the taste. If a musician I admired (Peter Gabriel, for example) suddenly made a metal album, I might be more inclined to put in the effort and openness needed to follow him down his new musical path. (I think Gabriel, and also Sting are good examples here -- each radically changed his overall sound upon going solo, and each no doubt lost some fans, retained others, and acquired some new fans, in the process.)
Thus, all else being equal, and the music not being something fundamentally against (or foreign to) my nature, I MIGHT acquire a taste for it -- but only if it is in my "interest" to do so.
However, I am not suffering from a lack of other forms of new music (which I already like) to buy, nor do any of my loved ones or close peers expose me to PM, nor do any of my musical "heroes" perform it (though perhaps Crimson comes closest), thus I am unmotivated or "uninterested" in acquiring a taste for modern metal. (I may as well try to get everyone here to enjoy Jane Austen novels, Chaucer, or the traditional music of my island home. It's just not going to happen!) Additionally, there is the matter of lyrical/thematic content. Though not important to some, they mean much to me, in music and art, and again, what I have experienced of these in the realm of PM do not resonate with me, my concerns, or my world view. It is not really made for one such as me -- just as a Justin Timberlake dance song, or a girly "bodice ripper" historical romance novel, or a gory slasher film, is not made to appeal to ME (and those most like me). Those art forms are aimed at other demographics -- not mine. Therefore, the "problem" with prog metal is the "problem" with people: People come in many forms, from many backgrounds, and as a result, so does the art which is directed toward us. It is unrealistic to think that all of us could get pleasure from the same things here -- you may as well try to dictate taste in food, sexual preferences, or even personal morality. Yes, we're all music fans -- we have that much in common, at least. But we're not a bunch of clones, raised in identical circumstances to this point. Vive le difference!
Edited by Peter Rideout - March 26 2007 at 23:44
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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stonebeard
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 23:07 |
You should compose your posts in the style of epic poems., Peter. Like, use introductions, foreshadowing, and songs within the tale. It would be much fun!
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Peter
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Posted: March 26 2007 at 23:21 |
stonebeard wrote:
You should compose your posts in the style of epic poems., Peter. Like, use introductions, foreshadowing, and songs within the tale. It would be much fun!
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Yes -- but did you read it? (I'm sure you could read it in much less time than it took me to type!)
 I know the length will immediately put many off, but I was on a roll there, and made some good points, I hope.
This is a subject (the individual's response to art; matters of choice, conditioning, and self interest; group identity vs self identity, etc) near and dear to my heart and educational background.
I hope someone else may find it interesting, or worth responding to, as well.
Now GOOD NIGHT! (Time to play some RA2!) 
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Thobjorn
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Posted: March 27 2007 at 00:56 |
From what I have seen in this topic, a lot of the controversy surrounding prog and metal is purely based on ignorance. EG: the notion that loud, distorted guitars and angry singing makes metal, which is completely erroneous. Neither Korn, nor Slipknot are metal. Also, Lamb of God are barely metal at all, falling under the "metalcore" subgenre(a mixture of new hardcore, that is "girl pants and emo haircuts" hardcore, and some mainstream metal). Death metal: Suffocation, Necrophagist, Adramalech, Death, Cryptopsy, et cetera. The thing about metal is that it is just as underground and pretentious as progressive rock, and the outsider is prone to be just as ignorant. Tool, for example, is not metal. It is not considered metal on Metal-Archives.com, nor any of the other leading metal websites. A lot of metalheads like Tool, me included, but they are not metal. I think bands like dream theater and queensryche, who straddle the line between metal and hard rock(queensryche not as much, they are almost completely hard rock.) add to the confusion. here is a good list of metal bands for each metal subgenre, for those curious to get a better picture of what metal is. Death metal: Suffocation, Necrophagist, Adramalech, Death(try the album Human), Cryptopsy, Morbid Angel Thrash metal: old Metallica, Megadeth(check out Rust In Peace...Polaris), Kreator, Slayer, Anthrax Doom metal: Candlemass, Eyehategod, Witchfinder General, Black Sabbath, Katatonia Black metal(probably not for you, it is minimalist music): Burzum, Emperor, Negura Bunget, Drudkh, Thorns, Blut Aus Nord Power Metal: ask someone else   Traditional Heavy Metal: Rage(from germany,their latest album is amazing), Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Agent Steele, Manowar Industrial metal: Godflesh, Jesu, Red Harvest, ..And Ocean's, and last but not least: NOT RAMMSTEIN
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"Has it been noticed that in heaven all interesting men are missing? - Just a hint to the women as to where they can find their salvation."
Friedrich Nietzsche
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FruMp
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Posted: March 27 2007 at 02:07 |
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I think I just realised a key reason why I hate dream theatre, when petrucci tries to chug be all mteal it doesn't sound right, he's like 'ooh look at me I'm being badass now'.
He always chuggs slow as well, always with the fast solos but the slow chugg, change it around and it might be decent.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: March 27 2007 at 02:09 |
^ "always chuggs slow" ... come on, listen to the music before posting such statements.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: March 27 2007 at 02:12 |
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The "problem" with prog metal
