| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
bucka001 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
|
 Posted: March 12 2007 at 07:24 |
James (Gecko) makes some great points. For all the people saying that Rush are better musicians, I just don't see it. Certainly, Rush are more "flashy" and are more into long solos. But how do you make the comparison, especially when the Rush lineup comprises a drummer, gtrst, bassist, and the VdGG lineup comprises an organist who plays bass pedals, a saxophonist, a singer who *occasionally* plays guitar, and a drummer?
Truly, Hugh Banton is one of the finest musicians in prog or any other genre. John Anthony, an A list producer who worked with Genesis, Queen, Roxy Music, The Tubes, and VdGG, said that HB was the finest organist, with depth of creativity and feeling, in Great Britain if not the world. If you're looking for Dream Theater-like flash, then yeah... you ain't going to "get" Banton. But when you stop to consider the brilliant stuff he's playing on the keyboards and then realize he's playing these killer bass lines *with his feet* at the same time, they you'll realize what John Anthony was on about.
David Jackson is the only sax player who sounds like David Jackson. Because VdGG didn't have a proper guitarist, he developed a style that went far beyond the soloing sax player. The guy plays two saxes at once effortlessly and sounds like a whole sax section. And the lines he comes up wIth are phenomenal... sometimes they're joyous, other times they're like something out of a nightmare. I've jammed with Jaxon before (I'm in a Chicago blues band that played a gig in Swindon - DJ came out for that). We were playing funk and slow blue tunes with him. No matter what we threw out there, Jaxon was right in the pocket improvising these monstrously brilliant double-sax parts - he brought the whole house down, standing ovation.
And Guy Evans? Well, granted, he has a much smaller kit than Neil Pert (thankfully), but he's more of a Phil Collins-esque drummer (Guy and Phil were great friends and admirers of each other's talent). Guy's genius is in the way that he can play in a rock style like nobody's business, yet with this smooth jazz-like groove underlying it all. Excellent.
So, I just don't see the 'Rush are better musicians' statement. Maybe on the surface if you're looking for flash, but as far as intelligent, creative, non-linear approaches to musicianship, you're hard-pressed to beat VdGG.
Rush fans should check out these clips to see some vintage prog. A bit before Rush's time, these clips, but a great view of prog's early years.
Darkness ('70)
Lost ('72)
|
|
jc
|
 |
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 15:52 |
|
it should also be noted that Hugh Banton published a solo album on which he played the Goldberg variations on organ. some of the variations (11, 17, 20, 23, 26, for example) are VERY difficult to play (as I, being a keyboard player myself, know from experience), but Banton's performance on the organ (the Goldberg variations were originally composed for harpsichord) is very convincing
|
 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 17:51 |
|
As huge a Rush fan as I am I'm surprised that Rush hasn't been totally blown away. I mean I listen to Rush constantly and think they are really good at their instruments but when compared to VdGG they get blown away. I mean come on! Look (as other people have pointed out) at Jaxon adn Hugh Banton! Brilliant musicians!
Rush has good musicians but not "really amazing let me sit here in total awe of these guys" musicians.
I can't wait to see VdGG in concert!
|
|
seamus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 01 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 300
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 18:35 |
(IMO)Rush are overrated  ,so i vote for VDGG! 
|
|
DallasBryan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 23 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3323
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 19:20 |
toss up! a tie between the "stratch your nails on the chalkboard" vocalists. depends if you want adolescent fairy-tales or endless morbid raving? can we add frank sinatra to the choices? 
KILL THE RADIO!
Edited by DallasBryan - March 12 2007 at 19:21
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 19:32 |
Bryan, have you heard much VdGG or Hammill solo? I can say for sure the lyrics are not as morbid as you believe. Of course they have their moments, but most of Hammill's lyrics are tongue-in-cheek in many ways. The really serious lyrics are on his solo album Over. Since when has 20 votes difference been a tie? 
|
|
|
|
Guests
Forum Guest Group
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 21:44 |
 Geck0 wrote:
I am sure my friend BaldFriede has heard her fair share of Rush and I am also sure she's very objective when it comes to saying they're "overrated".
 Objective means you can measure something, not just judge it. Objectively speaking, Rush buries VDGG in sales & concert tickets (This does necessarily mean you now have to admit that Rush are better or that VDGG are overrated, I'm just making a point on the only "objective" comparison that can be made for music). Which means that objectively speaking, Britney Spears is better than Rush. Cruel world, eh !
As for me, I've heard just the two albums (A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres) and even the instrumental La Villa Strangiato (which isn't that bad), didn't do much for me. I do not like Geddy's voice, but I'm not going to use that as an argument.
Very good, I'm still trying to figure why Hammill's voice is considered "different", as in hard to take ???
.
I'm not denying they're great musicians (I didn't say they weren't and neither did I say the members' of VdGG are better, so do read my post properly before saying your piece), who can make good music (I'd rather listen to Rush than E.L.P. and late-era Genesis). I'm also not denying that Peart's lyrics are horrible. I'm just saying that I don't especially care for their music and that they're overrated musically, not talent-wise.
Your appreciation of Rush is based on your liking them or not, which is fair & is an opinion. Considering them to be overrated musically, though, then you have to present an argument. In this case, objectivity is practically impossible. As you have stated, it's not about soloing. Apart from the usual guitar solos you will find in most Rock music, Geddy doesn't take any Bass solos, but Peart does in concert. I do believe that some VDGG instrumentalists take solos as part of the songs. So far, & this is just an opinion on my part, they haven't really caught my ear as exceptional soloists or instrumentalists. But then, chops & technique never made a bad song better. An ensemble's teamwork will often make a song sparkle more than the outstanding, but irrelevant solo.
And yes, VdGG do have some pop tendencies, I'm not denying that. Most prog albums of the '70s had some pop-leanings. However, VdGG were unique. Hammill's vocal style and his lyrics were completely different (and still are), to anyone else. I can accept they're not to everyone's liking, that's fine.
Pop tendencies are OK. And yes, among groups I've heard so far in my time as a music listener, I can't recall anyone else that sounds exactly like them. But there are groups who've sounded similar. Part of this for me is the organ playing. I'm more into the Jon Lord or Italian 70s prog scene type of playing. Hammill's vocal style reminds me of Bowie at times in the phrasing, & early Rob Halford in the tone. I do accept that they are not for everyone, which is fine. I have more than a few so-called "cult" groups in my collection that are among my favourites. & again, I'm still giving VDGG a few listens. Something might click. Plus one major kudo to VDGG fans - unlike some subsects that will PUSH their musical gods or the most obscure,avant-garde,difficult or plain Bad musical groups on you with an atitude that you simply cannot have any taste if you don't agree with them; (whew, long one there); VDGG fans have seemed rather more "composed" yet still very attached to their Idols.
I just believe they have more musical talent than Rush. It's not all about soloing and silly high voices. 
|
Good choice of words - "I believe". Who knows, maybe I'll be helping out VDGG's side in future threads  Not against Rush , though As per Pye We're just musicians, here to thin the thickness of your skin ....
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: March 12 2007 at 22:10 |
|
The reason Bowie and Halford sound like then, is probably because they're influenced by him. Hammill also happens to be influenced by Bowie too. Fish from Marillion is also influenced by his vocals. At the time VdGG were starting, those types of vocals were vibrant and new in the rock world. And in my opinion, Hammill's vocals are better than Bowie's, Halford's and Fish's. Hammill's voice is very difficult to mimic. Of course, so is Geddy Lee's.
VdGG do occasionally solo, especially on their earlier albums, but the time of Godbluff, they were a far tighter band and played much more as a band than ever before. They read each other perfectly. I actually prefer the fact they don't solo too much.
As for Banton's keyboard style, well I much prefer it to the bombast of Lord or Emerson. As Friede said, he also used bass pedals, which not many people do. He also makes his own organs, which is also very unique.
I don't know which tunes or albums you've heard, but you should try as many as you can, there are 3 distinct eras for them, all of which sound slightly different. Hammill's solo albums are completely different again.
They're far more diverse musically than Rush.
One of my favourite bands is Gov't Mule, now they're a JamBand, they have a lot of solos and they're a tight outfit, but I still can say that VdGG are better musicians in terms of composition, but Warren Haynes, the guitarist of Gov't Mule is a far better guitarist and can play in many different styles.
|
|
|
|
stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 00:14 |
DallasBryan wrote:
toss up! a tie between the "stratch your nails on the chalkboard" vocalists. depends if you want adolescent fairy-tales or endless morbid raving? can we add frank sinatra to the choices?
KILL THE RADIO! |
Adolescent fairy tales. 
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 01:33 |
I wonder where some people see the "pop" tendencies in VdGG  . I'd like to have an example for that, because I fail to see them
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 01:42 |
|
Me too.
Although I did say I heard a bit of pop, when I said that, I meant that their albums aren't off the wall and weird, they're quite listenable as albums, even if you're not a prog fan.
That doesn't make them pop, obviously. I guess he meant anything that has a tune and is memorable afterwards, is poppy.
Not so, of course. Even some avant-jazz have memorable bits in them.
Edited by Geck0 - March 13 2007 at 01:43
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 03:38 |
|
one of the main features of VdGG is that "enjoyable" passages and "weird" passages interchange in their songs. take for example "Man-Erg". that song might, except for the lyrics, be a "pop" tune, if a ballad automatically is "pop" for you (which in my opinion is nonsense), but then right in the middle there is an all out freak assault on the ears that is anything but pop. their contemporaries Genesis were a lot more poppy, but I certainly would not say early Genesis had pop tendencies. so saying VdGG have "pop" tendencies is far off the mark, in my opinion
Edited by BaldJean - March 13 2007 at 03:51
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 03:47 |
Oh I agree, Jean. VdGG aren't pop at all, never have, never will be. Genesis, Grobschnitt, Yes and even Gentle Giant were much poppier than VdGG and that's why I have issues with those bands.. A lot of Hammill's solo songs may be borderline (especially that one he performs on YouTube  ) though. Refugees is a ballad and it doesn't contain a freak-out section, but I still don't class it as pop music and neither does it really have pop elements. Hammill was influenced by a lot of pop music from the '50s though, apparently.
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 08:54 |
|
about Bowie and Hammill: it is Bowie who was influenced by Hammill and not the other way round. Bowie is a great fan of Hammill, by the way, and was at the RFH reunion gig (as were Jon Lydon, Bruce Dickinson and Fish, to name but a few)
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
Guests
Forum Guest Group
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 13:26 |
Geck0 wrote:
The reason Bowie and Halford sound like then, is probably because they're influenced by him. Hammill also happens to be influenced by Bowie too. Fish from Marillion is also influenced by his vocals. At the time VdGG were starting, those types of vocals were vibrant and new in the rock world. And in my opinion, Hammill's vocals are better than Bowie's, Halford's and Fish's. Hammill's voice is very difficult to mimic. Of course, so is Geddy Lee's.
VdGG do occasionally solo, especially on their earlier albums, but the time of Godbluff, they were a far tighter band and played much more as a band than ever before. They read each other perfectly. I actually prefer the fact they don't solo too much.
As for Banton's keyboard style, well I much prefer it to the bombast of Lord or Emerson. As Friede said, he also used bass pedals, which not many people do. He also makes his own organs, which is also very unique.
I don't know which tunes or albums you've heard, but you should try as many as you can, there are 3 distinct eras for them, all of which sound slightly different. Hammill's solo albums are completely different again.
They're far more diverse musically than Rush.
One of my favourite bands is Gov't Mule, now they're a JamBand, they have a lot of solos and they're a tight outfit, but I still can say that VdGG are better musicians in terms of composition, but Warren Haynes, the guitarist of Gov't Mule is a far better guitarist and can play in many different styles.
|
Sorry about the vocalist comparison, I meant it more to say that I really don't find Hammill's vocals that "hard to take", in that other relatively known singers had similar voices & still managed to "eke" out a career . The albums I've currently got from VDGG are Pawn Hearts, World Record, & The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other. One thing that struck me as I was listening to Wave yesterday was the similarity (not an exact copy or rip off) of Refugees to Procol Harum's Whiter Shade Of Pale. But then, it's not a rare occurrence in Prog to hear influences or melodies taken from the world of classical music.
|
|
bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 14:26 |
pantacruelgruel wrote:
One thing that struck me as I was listening to Wave yesterday was the similarity (not an exact copy or rip off) of Refugees to Procol Harum's Whiter Shade Of Pale. |
Good ear! A reviewer of the time thought the same thing.
|
|
jc
|
|
Guests
Forum Guest Group
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 21:10 |
bucka001 wrote:
pantacruelgruel wrote:
One thing that struck me as I was listening to Wave yesterday was the similarity (not an exact copy or rip off) of Refugees to Procol Harum's Whiter Shade Of Pale. |
Good ear! A reviewer of the time thought the same thing.
|
Whew, I thought for sure I was going to feel the red hot fires of hell in response to that one. For you Rush fans, check out Caress of Steel & discern the Genesis influence. There is a part that may recall Watcher of the Skies. Turnabout is fair play. And in talking of similarities between different groups, I wonder if any of you ever notices anything that Genesis or Yes might have picked up from Gentle Giant. Someone told me that early in their careers, both opened for GG, then as we all know, went to mass U.S. success that eluded GG (undesservingly so)
|
|
Mikerinos
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Planet Gong
Status: Offline
Points: 8890
|
Posted: March 13 2007 at 21:15 |
|
You can't compare Rush and VdGG based on their musician's technical skill (not like extreme technicality is essential anyway). Different instruments being played in very different styles, totally pointless to try and draw comparisons and say which band has "better" playing. I prefer VdGG as a musical whole, but like both for very different reasons.
Edited by Bluesaga - March 13 2007 at 21:16
|
|
|
|
pero
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2005
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 1242
|
Posted: March 14 2007 at 04:25 |
BaldJean wrote:
about Bowie and Hammill: it is Bowie who was influenced by Hammill and not the other way round. Bowie is a great fan of Hammill, by the way, and was at the RFH reunion gig (as were Jon Lydon, Bruce Dickinson and Fish, to name but a few) |
I'm not so shure about that.
I like them both, but I cant see any Hammils infuence in any phase of Bowies work.
My fav Bowie albums are: Man who sold the world, Alladin sane and Berlin trilogy (Heroes, Low, Lodger)
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: March 14 2007 at 07:48 |
pero wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
about Bowie and Hammill: it is Bowie who was influenced by Hammill and not the other way round. Bowie is a great fan of Hammill, by the way, and was at the RFH reunion gig (as were Jon Lydon, Bruce Dickinson and Fish, to name but a few) |
I'm not so shure about that.
I like them both, but I cant see any Hammils infuence in any phase of Bowies work.
My fav Bowie albums are: Man who sold the world, Alladin sane and Berlin trilogy (Heroes, Low, Lodger) |
Bowie himself said so in an interview once, so I guess we have to accept it as true
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Rush v. Van der Graaf Generator
