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Poll Question: Choose which album you prefer
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
24 [48.98%]
25 [51.02%]
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OpethGuitarist View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 15:21
Condor you went out to insult people rather than the music, that's where you went too far. You can insult any band all you want, personally I won't care much. However when you say the people who listen to that music are somehow inferior beings, you become an arrogant nuisance.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 15:46
Originally posted by OpethGuitarist OpethGuitarist wrote:

Condor you went out to insult people rather than the music, that's where you went too far. You can insult any band all you want, personally I won't care much. However when you say the people who listen to that music are somehow inferior beings, you become an arrogant nuisance.


I agree with that.
 
Now let's just forget about this.


Edited by Australian - November 01 2006 at 15:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:07
Originally posted by condor condor wrote:

Firstly, I'm not the kind of jumpy person waiting to be insulted at every opportunity. If you said the same thing about Red, I'd just ignore you; you're wrong. Why would I need to be insulted? Also, try reading what I say. Offended people always simplify one's arguments into absurd extremes or dichotomy that fit their simple mind-set. I've had to explain this to many tedious people like you all my life ("you can't generalise!", "you can't say that" and other rubbish).

Secondly, I said the best. I think TAAB is an excellent album but calling it the greatest is absurd.

It's like selecting a comedy novel as the greatest ever written. No matter how hilarious it is, it will still be a lesser work compared to 1984, Utopia, Brave New World etc because the breadth, importance and grandeur of ideas is less. There are lots of novels I disagree with, which I prefer to many I agree with, simply because the ideas challenge and stimulate more.

I'm sorry I cannot elaborate on the analogy more but think of it like this. Red is almost a music manifesto, TAAB simply a jolly narrative. I think people have been voting for the album that matches their tastes the most ("dark" people for Red; "light" people for TAAB) without considering how progressive i.e. avant-garde the album is.

If more people thought like this Lord of the Rings wouldn't top the Big Read poll for greatest book nor CTTE, SEBTB or whatever for progarchives. Instead, Brave New World or 1984 and Red or Pawn Hearts would.
 
 
LOL
1.Man, your commentaries on literature are... um... interesting. Talk about thinking in dichotomies. Big smile
2.Red is a musical manifesto? What's being manifested there more precisely? And since when were Kc avant-garde? Of course, Red is a wonderful album, everybody loves it, it's a damn fine progrock record, it takes chances with ideas, it's daring and challenging to assimilate, but it's quite obvious that your use of the term is totally automatic. Name anything Kc came up with before anyone else in terms of musical expression and I'll buy it.
3.What the heck are light and dark people?
4.You do have some kind of a point with the "Lord of the Rings" thing (although the analogy is unsubstantiated), but in that case 1984 would hardly qualify as a better option. Notice you're still talking mainstream: 1984, Red... let's be serious - the great struggle for breaking boundaries in artistical expression is happening elsewhere and most of us aren't aware of it and wouldn't have the analytical tools of perception to justly appreciate it. As long as we don't discuss real avantgarde/real masterliness in art, we should be humble enough to think of ourselves as mere music lovers, and not exegetic authorities.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:10
less insulting, more voting......





of Thick As A Brick.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:12
Once again, you have simplified and distorted what I have said. I suggested people who held works such as TAAB as the greatest achivement music has produced (not simply liking or listening to as you falesly claim) have not yet fully realized music's full emotional and progressive power.

If they think listening to TAAB induces music's highest emotions, then they are emotionally more primitive. You suggest I "insult" people because I am arrogant and enjoy putting people down. If people were not so reactionary and stubborn they might actually the see the flip-side of "insults". They only time "insults" are wrong is when they criticise characteristics people: cannot change or do not matter.

If someone considered Harry Potter the greatest novel written I would think them emotionally underdeveloped (not emotionally stupid as simple-minded believers in dichotomy will probably suggest). The same applies if you consider: Cats the greatest musical, TAAB the greatest album, Twelth Night the greatest play, Indiana Jones the greatest film.

Here's a definition of great: "of major significance or importance; "a great work of art"; "Einstein was one of the outstanding figures of the 20th centurey" Try thinking about why Einstein or Marx or Darwin were great rather than just good, then try and apply this to music. If you still think TAAB is the greatest album, you really have got your head screwed on wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:17
I hold Thick As A Brick as one of progressive music (or music)'s finest works, considering everything. And I have about 1500 albums to back me up as not being primitive or centered on what's wrongly great. So let's not say anything anymore. Stern Smile

Your vote is on Red, you can't see Thick As A Brick as the greatest, that's just great. But nothing more, please...

After all, this is the final of a game that lasted long enough and from which Thick As A Brick resulted, along with Red, as the "greatest" two. Everything is relative, because everything is a game.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:23

It seems there is always someone who tries to ruin the fun...

condor, your arguments are opinions, not facts. Get off your high horse and try to involve yorself in the spirit of the competition. OpethGuitarist started this for FUN, hopefully he will continue.
 
Just like the real olympics the best do not always win. And someone's idea of the best will differ from anothers - just like in sports.
 


Edited by Firepuck - November 01 2006 at 16:25
Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:38
Uroboros, do you know what dichotomy is? Do you consider all literary genres equally important?

Red as a manifesto, briefly:
Almost equal prominence and complexity for all instruments
Melding of orchestral and rock instruments together to produce a heavier sound.
Red: using solely instruments to produce verse, chorus and bridge
Fallen Angel: I think the only truly heavy ballad I have heard
Starless: I cannot do this justice so try this description at the bottom.

The greatest album probably hasn't been written yet but it definitely won't be anything like TAAB.

Light and dark people. Some people generally want bands to make them happy, some to scare or disturb them, some in between.

Obviously, I rushed the literary examples although I cannot see why a mainstream work is inherently less challenging. 1984 certainly wasn't mainstream when Orwell tried to get it published. However, the greatest book ever written may be by some obscure science fiction writer which took his/her entire life charting the course of humanity across the universe which we were all too lazy to tackle and recognise for its genius.

Lastly, whoever said it's all opinon, that's simply a relativistic cop-out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:51
Originally posted by Firepuck Firepuck wrote:

It seems there is always someone who tries to ruin the fun...


condor, your arguments are opinions, not facts. Get off your high horse and try to involve yorself in the spirit of the competition. OpethGuitarist started this for FUN, hopefully he will continue.

 

Just like the real olympics the best do not always win. And someone's idea of the best will differ from anothers - just like in sports.

 

    Why does no one ever read what I say? Am I cursed? I said greatest, NOT best. This isn't like the Olympics where you try to run the fastest; people are creating cultural works to induce emotions. TAAB induces jollity and epicness (excuse the neologism). Red induces deep sorrow (Fallen Angel), electric evil (Red), fear (One More Red Nightmare) and sadness, deep wonder, growth & triumph (Starless). Do you understand what I mean about certain emotions being more powerful than others?
    

Edited by condor - November 01 2006 at 16:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 16:54
Originally posted by condor condor wrote:

Once again, you have simplified and distorted what I have said. I suggested people who held works such as TAAB as the greatest achivement music has produced (not simply liking or listening to as you falesly claim) have not yet fully realized music's full emotional and progressive power.

If they think listening to TAAB induces music's highest emotions, then they are emotionally more primitive. You suggest I "insult" people because I am arrogant and enjoy putting people down. If people were not so reactionary and stubborn they might actually the see the flip-side of "insults". They only time "insults" are wrong is when they criticise characteristics people: cannot change or do not matter.

If someone considered Harry Potter the greatest novel written I would think them emotionally underdeveloped (not emotionally stupid as simple-minded believers in dichotomy will probably suggest). The same applies if you consider: Cats the greatest musical, TAAB the greatest album, Twelth Night the greatest play, Indiana Jones the greatest film.

Here's a definition of great: "of major significance or importance; "a great work of art"; "Einstein was one of the outstanding figures of the 20th centurey" Try thinking about why Einstein or Marx or Darwin were great rather than just good, then try and apply this to music. If you still think TAAB is the greatest album, you really have got your head screwed on wrong.


The problem is that you are confusing opinion with fact. A comedy can be just as good as a serious piece of literature. It's all in how well it is done. "The Taming of the Shrew" comes to mind, as does "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy." But, that is my opinion, and no more or less valid than yours.

You are also making negative statements about the people who disagree with you. Just because they don't see it your way does not mean they have their heads screwed on wrong. There are more constructive ways of expressing differences of opinion.



    
    

Edited by bhikkhu - November 01 2006 at 16:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 17:07
    "You are also making negative statements about the people who disagree with you. Just because they don't see it your way does not mean they have their heads screwed on wrong. There are more constructive ways of expressing differences of opinion."

This really takes the relativistic biscuit. I am being negative about people who disagree with me. Sorry, I respectfully think you are totally wrong. I am glad I have to put up with people who misinterpret what I say and are outraged that I think their taste imperfect.

Don't tell me. You privately treat people with equal intellectual respect even if they believe in something you hold to be fundamentally false or wrong.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 18:28
Just to answer the directly posed questions:
- Of course I know what dichotomy is - and I found it funny that it actually featured quite strongly in your argument (light and dark people - well, I would really like to know where I fit, since I equally enjoy listening to e.g. Devil Doll and Jethro Tull)... Anyway, let's admit that slipped.
- The idea of the whole "comedy is not good, comedy is comic" is seriously displaced (Bhikku pointed that out already). Of course every literary genre CAN be equally important - it's not about the mood/theme/approach, it's about expressing it in particular ways/developing the theme/making a persuasive statement/juggling with techniques etc. (hmm, I wish I was an English native speaker right now...)
- I'm not convinced that any of Red's virtues make it "superior" in intent or realisation. Listen to Schoenberg, Boulez, John Cage, even Philip Glass and then come back to Kc's innovative approach. Red is not in the same league, in the same way that 1984 is not in the same league as Foucault's Pendulum, but they are nevertheless great works of art in their own right, just not ultimate standards. And, as long as we don't deal with ultimate standards here, neither listeners of TaaB nor those who prefer Red should go saying he knows better. I'm just saying we should be careful when making judgements of value.
- Just for the record, Starless is my favourite piece of music ever and I love Red enourmously. I did vote for TaaB though. That must mean I like them both quite a lot. Tongue
 
- Sorry for pouring fuel on this, but after all any final match has to have its tensions/conflicts to make the whole thing dramatic. I hope there won't be any hard feelings. It is a game indeed and not much more.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 18:35
Anyway, I think a nice idea for the next championship would be to promote some more not-very-well-known bands/albums for a change. I mean, everybody knows TaaB/CttE/Red/Moving Pictures, so it was more of a competition between top 20 names... the more less known albums suggested in the early stages went out after the first or second round, so I don't think this thing actually succeeded in its informative/promotional intention. Maybe next time we could avoid suggesting "giants" and see what happens with less predictable contestants.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 01 2006 at 23:11
The next set of Olympics should be almost entirely different, this was more of a feel to see how people liked it, a beta version if you will.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 00:58
Originally posted by Uroboros Uroboros wrote:

Anyway, I think a nice idea for the next championship would be to promote some more not-very-well-known bands/albums for a change. I mean, everybody knows TaaB/CttE/Red/Moving Pictures, so it was more of a competition between top 20 names... the more less known albums suggested in the early stages went out after the first or second round, so I don't think this thing actually succeeded in its informative/promotional intention. Maybe next time we could avoid suggesting "giants" and see what happens with less predictable contestants.


well the idea was that people chosed their album, with which to enter the game.
so we can only hope for people to go...a little more underground.

the idea of not repeating this olympics' albums is great!, let's do the next one like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 01:16
Originally posted by condor condor wrote:

     "You are also making negative statements about the people who disagree with you. Just because they don't see it your way does not mean they have their heads screwed on wrong. There are more constructive ways of expressing differences of opinion."

This really takes the relativistic biscuit. I am being negative about people who disagree with me. Sorry, I respectfully think you are totally wrong. I am glad I have to put up with people who misinterpret what I say and are outraged that I think their taste imperfect.

Don't tell me. You privately treat people with equal intellectual respect even if they believe in something you hold to be fundamentally false or wrong.


I try to, and I never attack them.


    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 01:20
Originally posted by condor condor wrote:



This really takes the relativistic biscuit. I am being negative about people who disagree with me. Sorry, I respectfully think you are totally wrong. I am glad I have to put up with people who misinterpret what I say and are outraged that I think their taste imperfect.

Don't tell me. You privately treat people with equal intellectual respect even if they believe in something you hold to be fundamentally false or wrong.


you have to try the approach of arguments, honest dialogue, not a memento statement that sound, resembles or even is an insult. it's a very rare thing up here to discuss , to argument your opposite feelings or interpretation with someone.

I have many times other opinions that someone else (just for example, over/underrated situations), but I don't think I every went ballistically upon that opposite statement of mine.

In the end, some controversy is never wrong, only how it's treated starts to affect.

Again, let's continue and finish this game, which is a fun thing, a personal result of people previously voting and eliminating, and a enclosed thing of a leisure stand....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 03:09
Originally posted by condor condor wrote:



Here's a definition of great: "of major significance or importance; "a great work of art"; "Einstein was one of the outstanding figures of the 20th centurey" Try thinking about why Einstein or Marx or Darwin were great rather than just good, then try and apply this to music. If you still think TAAB is the greatest album, you really have got your head screwed on wrong.
 

I do consider Thick As A brick much more significant than Red. Every thing about the word “significant” is being able to make an impression on people and when looking at sales and which album is more known and accepted, then TAAB is far, far ahead of Red.  It was also recorded three years before Red.

 
 

End of Conversation



Edited by Australian - November 02 2006 at 04:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 03:26
Fallen Angel, Thick as a Brick...Fallen Angel, Thick as a Brick...
 
(sigh)
 
Thick. You HAD to put my favorite King Crimson song up there though, didn't you? Still, it's albums and not songs, so I'll go with Thick.
 
As though you thought I wouldn't. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2006 at 05:48
Fact: I think TAAB is the best album ... ever!
 
Fact: Not everyone agrees with my opinion
 
Fact: I am entitled to my opinion
 
Fact: You are entitled to your opinion
 
Fact: My opinion and your opinion can be different
 
Fact: If your opinion differs from mine I have the opportunity to explore your ideas, and you have the opportunity to explore my ideas ... and this may lead to one of us changing our opinion ... but it doesn't have to
 
 
 
BTW, IMHO TAAB is the best album ... EVER! Thumbs Up
 
 
 
Possibility: I will discover another album I believe is better than TAAB ... it could happen! Wink
 
 


Edited by T.Rox - November 02 2006 at 05:49
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