Zeuhl 5

John Coltrane is great and Vander is his son. It's beeen twenty-five years that Magma appeared in the Universe. It's with his leader and creator that we celebrate this "jubil=E9". Christian Vander, an extra-ordinary drummer and singer, is most of all a great musician, a composer who fights for life.

Batterie Magazine(B.M.) : Magma is said to be born in Turin, 1969...

Christian Vander(C.V.) : I went there just after the death of John Coltrane and I was living here for eighteen months, in dire straits. One morning, in spring, I endured a sort of revelation : I had to go back to Paris, without any reason to do so. That was the beginning. During the summer, I toured on the "Cete d'Opale" with Laurent Thibault ; there, we founded the story of Magma.

B.M. : Why and how was Magma born ?

C.V.: At this period, there existed a lethargical movement. Someone had to start, somewhere, from zero. I was listening very often to John Coltrane at that time and in fact I listen to him still nowadays. His music was not totally understandable and is perhaps still not.

B.M. : Was your musical background totally made of jazz ?

C.V. : Yes, really. And the music of Magma has been wrongly assimilated to pop or progressive music. Magma was not perhaps on the fringes but it was different. I've learnt to listen to all kind of music - and Coltrane in fact had lead the way. It's important to be attentive to other sorts of culture but without changing them. I would not pick up a folklore somewhere and interprete it in my own way. The question is to be the echo of what we hear.

B.M. : How such a music was brought to life and how did people meet to create this yet-unheard type of music ?

C.V. : This may be named chance but in fact there's no hazard. There were at that time musicians who wanted to go further in the musical territory, but they were not the ones everyone thought of : many musicians were angry because they could not jam with the stars ; one day, I organized a reunion in Paris and that was a total disaster. So I decided to convoke musicians from other parts of the coutry such as Claude Engel from Tours or Francis Moze from Bordeaux - and who had never played bass. We thought "A vie, e mort et apres". I do hope that nowadays each of them follows his way. I can say that during twenty-five years I have followed this sentence.

B.M. : In the elaboration of Magma's music, what are the importances of work, research and spontaneity ?

C.V. : For me, this is quite a natural way : I stand up, go to the piano and there, it comes. I've continued to work that way. of course, if i spend many hours in front of the piano, I always find something, but it's the daily music, a music that is in no way connected with the one which comes from our deep-inside ; we are just receptors to this music.

B.M. : The "kobaian", this tongue initiated by Magma, came that way ?

C.V. : Absolutely ; words came from nowhere : the first word I sang was "Kobaia". And I composed this song on a guitar, which is an instrument I had never played with before ; so, I sang "Kobaia" which means "eternal".

B.M. : And the myth of Kobaia came...

C.V. : Yes, practically at the same time. The name of Magma appeared later : one night, the group was expected to play at the "Rock&Roll Circus" but we had no name. We had been answered : "No name, no playing". So I went and sat in the next bar and I began to search for a name. Three years before, I was in a group with Bernard Paganotti and I had composed a song named "Nogma". The sound came : "Magma" ; I returned to the club and I announced this name.

B.M. : This group with Paga can be cosidered as the basis of Magma ?

C.V. : Yes, that was the first try. That was called "Chinese" and we were playing famous soul-music songs. but we were also composers and we used to sing in another language made of spanish, italian and strange sounds. Maybe it can be considered as the birth of the kobaian - but I had to wait to my return from Italy to make it all clear.

B.M. : The logo of Magma, this famous "griffe"(note : sorry, can't translate it), has been very important for the fame of the band. Where did it come from ?

C.V. : I didn't create that - I don't claim to innovate - but I'm very eager to be able to accept all the innovations. This logo seems to be a symbol of fire and sun. I had imagined it as a kind of chest-plate of an egyptian inspiration which would have covered all the body. But the sister of Laurent Thibault imagined it as a medal.

B.M. : At the beginning, how was the group judged ?

C.V. : Something sure is that the public reacted. Some had been very impressed while others had felt that as a sort of agression. It's true that at that lethargical time, Magma was really something different. But that was the purpose : it was time to awake - and this is my permanent aim.

B.M. : Progressively, the band turned into a more radical approach of music...

C.V. : Of course. At the beginning, my influences were very present : I was listening to musicians such as Pharoah Sanders. The ambiances created by these percussionnists were really fascinating and they could be echoed in Magma. After, the number of musicians was reduced, the sound moved. At the beginning, everyone composed but quickly I was the only composer. I have to reanalyze my music with the time and I think that I didn't want anyone to get familiar with my music : at the time, some were playing the same three notes for two hours-that was cool. But I had to be realist and had to awake.

B.M. : The sound of the group changed in the following years. For instance you abandonned the horns...

C.V. : In fact, it's very difficult to play with horns : you're on stage without having the time to repeat. It's much better to have four persons on stage who are really "inside the music" than twenty who are not really coordinated. Adding players is nice-to-see but it weakens the music. The whole orchestra must play as a single man- or you play in a trio.

B.M. : Quickly, Magma has been reproached to be aggressive and I remember that on the "1001o C" 's cover, you had mentionned "war drums"...

C.V. : At the beginning, I think it was made to differentiate ourselves from the other bands. We used to have black clothes which was not the current fashion. Everyone had flowers on their clothes but I, I prefered to see flowers in the country. And I had a kind of agressivity because I was ill at ease as many others, and i had to say it. I was simply discovering humanity's drama... Since I was a child, I had always listened to people who had this deep inside located shout, this "OM". At the beginning, it was Ray Charles and then after, John Coltrane ; I had understood his daily pain, I felt concerned without knowing why.

B.M. : On one hand, there had been a strong reject of the band such as rumours saying that the band was fascist , but on the other hand a great number of people identified themselves in your music. I remember having seen 2CV (note: a very popular french car) with the logo of Magma painted on it and driven by people who were dressed in black.

C.V. : Very often, the public has only seen the external side of Magma, its dark image. But, there was some fun in Magma and we were not playing only dark music. Many groups tried to imitate Magma but their appearances were falsified and they this wrong image to the public.

B.M. : But you have often been provoking when claiming that "MAGMA was the best band in the Universe" and when denouncing the surrounding musical vacuity.

C.V. : Time went by and I had no surprises when listening to other bands. I would like to see a flower merchant in each street ; that's the same for music : in Magma, we were always trying to go beyond our possibilities. We had the feeling that we were wasting our energy because what was surrounding us was simply chaos. It's a pity but it's the same thing nowadays, except a few groups that are diluated and isolated. I was always astonished by Magma and never by the others. To find new ideas I should have gone to clubs to listen to musicians, to "exchange our musical strength" ; but in fact I was listening to John Coltrane, which is not logical. That's the same thing nowadays.

B.M. : Most of the musicians who played in Magma were previously unknown. Did you discover them or did they came themselves ?

C.V. : Many musicians came to enter the band and I used to make a selection. In general, I used to accept musicians who had a real will to play with us. I tried to work with well-known musicians but the first they did was to criticize the music. So I only recruited new musicians who were searching for something new, something different. And there are many musicians of this type - we could have formed many others.

B.M. : Was the music very written ?

C.V. : I used to compose the melody line for each instrument and for the singer. Piano, bass, horns..., all was composed. But when the music had been played many times and had been assimilated, any new idea was welcome. Some musicians did contribute to the elaboration of our music. I was saying to the band's members "You're on stage, now you can express yourselves". No need to quote who was following my advice because when anyone listens to Magma, he distinguishes who evolves freely in the band. That's what I was doing when I was on the drums. I was playing Magma's music, I was at its service but I was permanently improvising.

B.M. : After "Mekanik Destruktiw Kommandoh", the band reached its maturity. But "Kohntarkosz", the following album, explored totally new musical realms?

C.V. : It's a pretty sad story but things have to be said. A man called Mike Oldfield did steal my music - to be more precise, extracts from "Mekanik" and "La Dawotsin". When we recorded "Mekanik Kommandoh" in 1972, Oldfield was waiting for recording "Tubular bells", which is in fact an extract from my music. I played this music for him, without guessing that he would steal it for him. When I saw the film "The Exorcist", like a "good boy" I found its music fantastic. Of course it was : that was the music I used to play. I didn't make the relation between the two musics at once. But, one day one of Magma's member told me "Mike oldfield, he's the guy who was there when we composed Mekanik Kommandoh". In fact, he hasn't composed something else in the same vein because he had not the end of the music. Since this film, many film scores were composed that way - which is typically magma's one - and I couldn't play my music because I could have been accused of copying the others. That really drove me crazy. At this time, i had composed the following music of "Mekanik kommandoh" but, as I couldn't play it, I had to explore new harmonic realms, which were a little bit too complicated for my capacities - unless Mekanik - and that was "Kohntarkosz".

B.M. : There existed different eras for Magma. With "Attahk", you said you wanted to play rock or punk music...

C.V. : I've never said such an absurdity. People need bearings, references. I can't stop them. Many talk about the seventies, but what does it mean ? nothing. I've never followed a certain fashion because fashions are already outfashionned. Why asking me if Magma is ended ? It's a continuity, a suite. It does evolve like in a "spiral".

B.M. : How did you move to "Attahk" and then to Offering ?

C.V. : At that time, musicians were complicating the music. I had to return to sources to create a very simple musical basis, without any melody. For "Attahk", the band was more or less dissolved and in the recording studio I was alone with a couple of mercenaries.

B.M. : A rumour says that for "Attahk" you did write everything for each player...

C.V. : I wrote everything from A to Z. I'm gonna tell you something very significant : at a moment I told the bassist that his playing was wrong - when he was alone to play music ; I had the feeling that the bass was not assuming its function while there was no drums. He replied that it was nice that way. So I let him play but when I listen to this passage nowadays, I think that he was wrong : I can't understand how this guy could have thought he was playing the right way - but he himself will continue to listen to it for the rest of his life. So, shall I. That's the problem : in "Attahk" I had to do everything, I had to sing which is something I only used to do at home to compose.

B.M. : But, on stage you used to sing a song entitled "HHAI" ?

C.V. : Yes, but just at the beginning of the concert because singing is impossble while I'm on drums. In the "Bobino's Concert", it's evident that it's very difficult to sing and to drum simultaneously. Now either I sing either I play. It's with Offering that I developped my singing capacities. "Attahk" did open the way to the musics of Offering. These were musics that I had always played but that I played just for me. When I returned to jazz at the Riverbop (note : a parisian club), Jacqueline Ferrarri, the owner of the club, suggested to play all the musics I was keeping inside me. We had to find a name. Offering was a good name because there was the notion of gift.

B.M. : Music began to be more acoustic...

C.V. : As at the beginning of Magma. Because Magma was an acoustic band. Of course we had problems to find a balance between acoustic and electric : we'd been the first in France to play on Fender Pianos. I have always been attracted by acoustic music. To have the same sensations with electric instruments, you have to be a real artist. Jannick Top, for example, really masters his instrument : when listening to him, I can hear choirs, horns... He had a new approach on the bass but unfortunately no one followed his way.

B.M. : You declared that Magma could have been a band without any drums but in fact, your personnality as a drummer was overpowering the other individualities.

C.V. : I don't know why and I'm sad of that. For me, I was just helping the music of Magma : I was the drummer as others were the pianists, the bassists or the singers. I've never tried to be considered as a leader. I've always been considered as the drummer of Magma and not as the main composer, what I really became. There was no leader but an entity "Magma". Decisions have always been taken collectively. Do you know that I had been fired from Magma ?

B.M. : At the time of the first band ?

C.V. : Yes, I remember that we were in a truck. Faton and Teddy Lasry announced me that I was not following the spirit of the band, that I was not well-integrated. Loulou Sarkissian and I really laughed for quite a while. I thought : "Magma will continue but I'll form another zeuhl-band tomorrow". The following night we played together and they never told me that again. But I can say that I've been fired from Magma !

B.M. : Your way of drumming was very particular, very different of what the others did at that time...

C.V. : I was in fact very far from rock-drummers. I was following Elvin Jones and, even in jazz, no one was playing like him. I had listened Elvin Jones since I was eleven and I had worked on "My Favorite things". When I was playing the syncops, people were hearing it as wrong : it was different and thru Magma, people discovered Elvin Jones. When we were playing jazz at the Riverbop, we told the public - which was Magma's one - to listen to the themes we were playing in their original version, which were much better than ours. Progressively, they discovered Coltrane and perhaps that they forgot Magma. That's quite normal... During the whole first period of Magma, I've never told about John Coltrane although I was thinking of him all the time, he was everpresent in my music. I was thinking that when listening to Magma, people could understand the unsaid. But that wasn't so easy.

B.M. : Why did you return to jazz ?

C.V. : Essentially because of Jacqueline Ferrari, the owner of the Riverbop, who has always told me to do so. At the beginning, I haven't found the idea very good but progressively, playing in a club and being in direct contact with the public made me really feel good.

B.M. : Is it thru Coltrane that you discovered Elvin, or is it the contrary ?

C.V. : I used to listen to Coltrane before he played with Elvin. My mother made me discover him. We used to listen very often the LP of Miles Davis entitled "Cookin'" (with "Airegin", "Tune up", "When the lights are low") where John plays very beautiful choruses : there's something different in his manner of playing saxophone. It's the same thing with Elvin. Bobby Jaspar, who was playing with him in Belgium, presented Elvin to my mother as a future great drummer. One or two years after, Elvin began to play with John.

B.M. : You were born in a familly of musicians ?

C.V. : I don't know my father, in fact, who was someone fantastic, according to my mother. She married the pianist Maurice Vander who so became my father-in-law and who gave me a well-known name . I went to jazz clubs as I was really young and there were very often jazz musicians at home.

B.M. : Do you remember your first drum kit ?

C.V. : Yes, Chet Baker gave it to me. He had seen that I was alwys playing with my hands with him, following the rhythm. One evening, as I was eleven, he drove me to "le Chat qui Pache" (note : a famous jazz club in Paris), told me to wait for him and he came back with a brand new drum kit, offering it to me. It was his drummer's one and, fortunately for him, he had hired it. Two years after, I was sued for having stolen this drum kit.

B.M. : Did you learn to drum in a classical way ?

C.V. : At the beginning, i had a teacher but he died a little later. So I went to the consevatory of my neighborhood where the teacher told me that he couldn't integrate me at the middle of the year ; he showed me students that had been there for two years but I found that they didn't know much because I had yet worked very hard. Then, I tried to work with Agostini but I soon gave it up : I have never learnt the technical aspects of drums because what interested me was the freedom of my wrists ; my wrists have to act without being worried by the rest of my body. It's a problem of dialog not a problem of technical plans : someone who re-plays the same chorus many times just listens to himself and if he previews where to play his phrasing, it's already too late. Of course no one can't always improvise phrasing that seems to be written. I don't claim to do so but Elvin does. He permanently plays different phrasings and it's magic, never played at the same moment. It's free. That is the way I see things and that's why I looked for liberty.

B.M. : The link between the body and the instrument is important ?

C.V. : You've got to know well your body, that's all. I understood that you don't have to beat very hard the drum kit ; I would have liked to be told that but I discovered it. In Elvin's drumming manner, from a tone to another, there exists a great "plain" (sic). That made me discover a kobaian word : doweless. The great drummers don't beat the drum kit but it's the touch which is important. That's the same for other instruments. You've got to restrain yourself : so, the sound has a total amplitude.

B.M. : Why haven't you recorded drum-choruses ?

C.V. : Because drummers as Elvin did so : I don't understand what would be the interest of mine. I've searched for the perfect chorus, for myself, that I've developped on stage since 1972. I've developped around ten choruses and maybe we'll publish it or its summary.

B.M. : Haven't you thought of just playing drums ?

C.V. : For me, drums are an instrument who helps the solist. I can't listen to drums for hours but a saxophone, yes.

B.M. : What do you think of these drummers who play in a very technical and demonstrative way ?

C.V. : Just ask them what they think of themselves...The ones who learnt drums in schools have wasted their time because when they want to play in clubs, they've got to erase all the "cliches" they've been taught. Some teachers have not moved and they are unable to play a music which is alive. That's their choice. What you're taught in schools are things that have been discovered progressively, in an artistic way ; the students just assimilate it in a single year.

B.M. : How do you hear the drums in the Trio ?

C.V. : As the wind, as a cool blow. Something very difficult to communicate. The three instruments form an homogeneous movement whose tempo is indicated neither by the drums nor by the bass but by the whole sound. You've got to follow this tempo but you must appear like playing with it. And the touch is the key-element.

B.M. : In Offering, you're the composer, in the Trio you play John Coltrane's music...

C.V. : For me, jazz is really a music created by the blacks of America and it causes jazz to be so difficult to understand. But it's interesting to try to play it even if I think that jazz is inaccessible for the whites. Offering is my own colour ; in Offering, I really feel free and I can't play more rightly.

B.M. : And Fusion ? Was it a band created for a single album ?

C.V. : No, we made a couple of concerts at the Riverbop. The album has been recorded six months later. But certain parts where Didier and Benoit had played have been re-played in studio : that created major changes. We had played the rhythmics 'live' on soft themes but these themes have been replayed in a strict way - the rhythmics should have been replayed too. This was the problem with this album but it was a very interesting experience. I tried to play binary music, something that I had never done before. I had always played more or less a "ternairisant binary music" (sic)- as Dejohnette. You've got to be ternary if you don't want to play like a robot or if you don't want to be replaced by a rhythm-box. I know drummers that have worked on binary rhythm and who now come to the studio with their rhythm-box.

B.M. : Magma is a worldwide-known band and everyone knows its name. Why ?

C.V. : Because we went towards the public. When the medias evoke the seventies, they speak of France Gall or Sylvie Vartan (note : two famous popular french singers). Magma has imposed itself. The plot is evident : when you stand up and say something, you're considered as fascist and if you say nothing, you're the slave of the medias that decide who can play music or no. Magma has never followed these rules. For the 20th anniversary of the death of John Coltrane , not a single extract has been shown on telly even if there exists many films from his Antibes concert of 1965 ; that is something different from all the blood that we can see on TV and which afraids children. The television divides nations, families and generations. No one has the time to think : they watch at this screen, go out and kill the first man they see ; they are educated by the violence. A twenty-years-old man don't know that nowadays, there are ten times more agressions than when he was born. It's possible to eliminate violence and I'm noy afraid to say that the television is a murderer who introduces himself in each house ; I want to make a CD who would be named "Murderer" (note : in french, "Assassin"). People don't realize that they become prisonners of this black screen which presents to them only one side of reality. We've got to react. Eveything is in my music : I didn't know why I was screaming but it was instinctual. You become violent because what surrounds you doesn't let you to act and speak freely. Magma came that way because I hadn't understood that the earth was a prison camp and that outside there existed an unreachable world we can't attain. If we try to escape, if we try to show to the others the reality of the world, we are outcasts, we don't exist any longer. We are really crushed day by day by an invisible force ; that's why Magma exists, why Offering exists, why I still continue.