Can we put Rush in the super prog category?

Bye the way, what does super prog means?

micky wrote: ahh..since the iron is hot .. ... with the constant sl*gging Kansas gets for being AOR fresh in my mind from earlier this evening..  you can really narrow down Rush's 'superprog' status down to 3 albums. 2112, FtK, and Hemispheres.. after that they definitely went down the AOR route...with blazing skills of course.. but AOR all the same.  Rush in  'super prog' status... no way...  though their fans would qualify as 'super prog-fans' hahah.

You're asking for  trouble, aren't you?

*puts on Judas Priest's "Screaming for Vengeance", just to get in the mood*

Wait until I unleash the Terminator on you... You'll have to eat your words!

I'd say Micky is right. 

It seems that we're back to the "not all good music is prog music" discussion. Moving Pictures is hardly prog, and even if it's innovative it simply doesn't fit together with Close to the Edge or Selling England by the Pound. However, I personally still count Rush as one of the "Big 6" or whatever you wish to call them, on the basis of the albums Caress of Steel, 2112, A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres. The trick is to see where to draw the line. Besides, what's so hideous about AOR? If Rush's post-Hemispheres albums are AOR, it can't be that bad, since all of those albums are great!

Based on their '70s albums, Rush is super prog (to me), but not all of their output falls into that category. It's important to be able to look past one's opinions and recognize important points that other people point out.

Edited by Philéas - July 27 2006 at 05:02

They are hardly prog, if one defines prog as the music of Yes, Genesis or ELP. But they are certainly prog, if one defines prog as whatever music that is new and unique.

See why this discussion is so hard?


Edited by Philéas - July 27 2006 at 05:34

Ghost Rider wrote: But on this website there are hundreds of bands that have nothing to do with the music of Genesis, Yes and ELP... Are all the bands in the Canterbury, Post-Rock or Zeuhl sections (to name but few) not prog either?

I don't deny the progressive nature of any band on the site (except maybe Rhapsody, but that's off topic), but seen from the eyes of the typical old-school proghead, who accepts nothing except the classic work of the classic bands (i.e. Close to the Edge, Selling England by the Pound, Tarkus etc.), Rush's Moving Pictures is not prog. My aim with the post was to point out that this discussion won't prove anything, except that there are people who violently hate Rush and people who love Rush just as violently.

Don't misunderstand me though! I love Moving Pictures, I just finished listening to it, and I view it as one of the great prog albums. It's certainly one of the best prog albums released in the '80s.

Record sales have no bearing on quality whatsoever, just accessibility.

erik neuteboom wrote: Indeed Micky is asking for trouble, very provocative conclusion  to say that after Hemispheres "they definitely went down the AOR route" while after Hemispheres the albums Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures and Exit Stage Left are highlights in the progrock history (innovative sound, great ideas)  .. in my opinion as Erik the Rush super prog category fan .., mr. Micky  !

hahah... well Erik.. of course we all simply call them as we see them... but to me,  the turn to AOR away from pure prog is quite obvious.. and was noted by the band due to their percieved limitations on Hemispheres.  They knew they had reached the end of the 'prog' rope and mutated their sound.  I'm not saying their stuff through signals wasn't great stuff... it was..however I think it could easily be called....hahah  prog related AOR.  The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums.  Few people would consider 90125 to be anything but Yes mutating into a prog related AOR band... Rush was very similar in the early 80's.. just done with less emphasis on songwriting and more on instrumental showmanship.  My two cents as always of course hahah

Maybe Rush is the #1 "heavy metal with prog elements" band in history.  The ultimate chops-fest with good song-writing and melodies.  If they aren't prog, all you nay-sayers should unite to have them kicked off this site.  However, I do not think you would not prevail.

Tony R wrote: micky wrote: erik neuteboom wrote: Indeed Micky is asking for trouble, very provocative conclusion  to say that after Hemispheres "they definitely went down the AOR route" while after Hemispheres the albums Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures and Exit Stage Left are highlights in the progrock history (innovative sound, great ideas)  .. in my opinion as Erik the Rush super prog category fan .., mr. Micky  ! hahah... well Erik.. of course we all simply call them as we see them... but to me,  the turn to AOR away from pure prog is quite obvious.. and was noted by the band due to their percieved limitations on Hemispheres.  They knew they had reached the end of the 'prog' rope and mutated their sound.  I'm not saying their stuff through signals wasn't great stuff... it was..however I think it could easily be called....hahah  prog related AOR.  The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums.  Few people would consider 90125 to be anything but Yes mutating into a prog related AOR band... Rush was very similar in the early 80's.. just done with less emphasis on songwriting and more on instrumental showmanship.  My two cents as always of course hahah   I do not believe that Rush went the AOR route or looked for MTV rotation. Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures were meant as explorations of the shorter song format but were also a "been there done that" reaction to side long epics as opposed to any move towards broadening their appeal. The simple proof of this is Signals. Anyone who believes that work is a commercial effort has his head in the clouds.Signals was almost conceived as an antedote to the popularity that the previous two albums had created for the band. Peart in particular hated the fact that all sorts of "undesirable" people came out of the woodwork and latched onto the band and the band decided to veer off in a slightly different direction once more. The simple fact of the matter is that if Rush were so intent on breaking into the upper-stratosphere of rock stardom they would have brought in a new vocalist. They could have gone on releasing carbon-copies of Waves or Pictures ad infinitum and maybe been an even bigger commercial success than they ultimately are. Rush have always gone their own way as far as their record contract and artistic integrity is concerned-in fact they are legends in the industry precisely for this fact.It was mentioned at both their induction into the Juno Hall Of Fame and also when they were given The Canadian Order Of Merit.It seems obvious to me that if you look at their total output, commerciality has never been a consideration and using 2112 as a guide they seem to have been relatively free of record label interference.2112 was a make or break album for them yet they went for a side-long concept almost in defiance of outside pressures.The fact that they were proved correct and went onto commercial success does not mean that commerciality is at the core of their music.   Mickey,the following is a perfect example of the phenomena "what I think, is what I know" "The albums were obviously geared to sell mass quantities and the artistic aestetic that we love prog for.. and is one of the PRIME characteristics of what is prog and is not.. gone .. sold for MTV rotation, increased sales, and easier to digest albums" Pure speculation presented as fact. Utter nonesense too. You may be familiar with Rush's recorded output but you have proved conclusively that have no knowledge of the band itself.You cannot compare Yes and Rush's 80s output without comparing the relative dynamics of those bands. Yes weren't even Yes for starters...

hahha.... no wonder I like you Tony.... you have my temper when you get rilied up.   It's how I see Rush based on 20+ years of listening to them... the Rush/AOR connection is far from nonsense for as many who see it as I do.. it's all in how you look at it.  If I have some time later... I'll come back to your post... but honestly my friend.... I could do without the attitude hahha.   It's not geared toward constructive conversation hahahha

erik neuteboom wrote: Micky, be careful to suggest that Rush had intentions to flood the commercial market because, as Tony R wrote, they could have sold way more but they always found a balance between sales and quality. I said this despite my frustrations about their post-A Show Of Hands-era (I stopped buying Rush studio albums) ...

I know Erik... I don't buy into the AOR = crap routine.  Too many people buy into the great album -> prog B.S.   Of course Rush could have sold more albums.... and I'd be the first to say that early in the 80's they blended sales and quality rather damn well.  That said... I still think it was AOR... just extremely well done... I don't put a stigma on AOR like some people do.  The end result of Rush's change after the full blown prog of Hemispheres  was toward a more AOR format.. we all know that by the early 80's prog was DEAD, and the artists had to have known it.   Rush mutated like all those groups did.  Hense my 'comparison' with Yes.   I like Tony... but if calling me ignorant as far as the band is the best he's got.. hhaha... I'll leave it alone.  It's just a way of looking at the music... it's not politics or religion.. then again.. if you happen to be the high priest of Rush fans... it would border on heresy .  I stopped buying fter Signals btw though I did like some of their 90's stuff.. but have always liked the group... just not a hero worshipper of them.  Anyway I'll step back and wait to get tarred and feathered again