Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
Aaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 395
|
Topic: Definitions of improvisation and jam Posted: May 07 2006 at 16:54 |
A few months ago I brought this up in another thread pretty much trying to understand the same thing. For some reason I want to make a difference between the two. I thought I understood it, but all too often is it challenged by something.
My definitions
Jam - playing songs with extended instrumental sections with some spontaneity but overall following some sort of prethoughtout structure.
Improvisation - a song created with little forthought, a few ideas for structure and general concept, maybe a few riffs here and there, but for the most part made up on the spot, generally the reason why they are so long, a good song is when the band members can really get into each others heads and sort of creat spontaneously together. Improvising is the concience thought of trying to change/progress.
Right now, I like my definitions, but they continue to be challenged by songs like Yeti. It says it's an improvisation, but not by my definition. I don't think it's a jam either, somewhere in between.
There are tons of jam type bands
but not as many improvisational, because I imagine it is more difficult, and the example I am about to give of an improvisational band isn't really even a good example
Agitation Free- let's just take Layla prt2. Now I guess I believe the only part of this song that is truly improvisational is the two guitar parts, because the rhythm is pretty much the same throughout. But I do believe the guitars are improvisational throughout for the most part, I can definitely imagine this song played live this way, it could go on and on and you wouldn't care.
I dont know what I am asking, what are your definitions and examples
Aaron
|
|
Barla
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 13 2006
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 4309
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 17:13 |
For me, jam and improvisation are the same: do what comes to your mind following certain scales, sometimes with some riffs in the middle, or in the soloing time of a song; and let you go by the music.
A good example is live Deep Purple.
|
|
laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 17:15 |
what's a good way of putting this? Meurglys III is a jam; Providence is an improvisation.
|
|
mithrandir
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 25 2006
Location: New Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 933
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 17:18 |
you'll get no arguements from me on those definitions, they sound just about right,
improvisations are usually better suited in a live setting, therefor you wont have as many bands that specifically put out pure in-studio improv albums, though there are plenty to be found,
Edited by mithrandir - May 07 2006 at 17:20
|
|
mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 17:30 |
jamming is an integral part of a band's development - it enables the musicians to learn to communicate with other and develop new ideas. i would guess improvisation, during a live performance for example, would reduce the tedium of months spent on the road playing the same songs over and over every night, and it would provide concertgoers with special "privileged" versions of their favourites.
|
Prog Archives Tour Van
|
|
Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 18:01 |
Jam session is a slang term for improvisation session - although a subtle difference seems to be that a jam session carries the implication that songs will be written as a result of the improvisation.
|
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
|
|
Catholic Flame
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 295
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 18:35 |
Barla wrote:
For me, jam and improvisation are the same: do what comes to your mind following certain scales, sometimes with some riffs in the middle, or in the soloing time of a song; and let you go by the music.
A good example is live Deep Purple. |
I agree.
|
“Great things are not accomplished by those who yield to trends and fads and popular opinion.”
~Jack Kerouac
|
|
Tomodachi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 10 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 147
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 20:07 |
I've always thought that:
Improvisation = a section inside a song when all the instruments but one or two play a chord progression repeatedly and the remaining instruments improvise playing on that accompaniment; at the end of the improvised section the song continues normally.
Jam (session) = a piece of music that is completely improvised by all the members of the band (however following a predefinite chord progression or basical structure): some instruments play the accompaniment and others play the solos, and after some time the roles are inverted and so on.
|
|
|
Zoso
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 501
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 20:23 |
Most of the time when I jam with guys, it's very very improvised
throughout, and we'll just start with one key and stay in it for
sometimes 5 minutes, sometimes an hour if we're really cooking, and
then move on to whatever's next. We never talk to one another, we just
totally feel what one another are doing and listen to one another and
change with each other. It's an awesome thing.
|
|
|
Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
|
Posted: May 07 2006 at 20:29 |
Jam to me means the instintaneous music of rock bands.
While Improvision is what Jazz or Jazz influenced musicians perform.
|
|
Abstrakt
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2005
Location: Soundgarden
Status: Offline
Points: 18292
|
Posted: May 08 2006 at 02:29 |
The Best examples of pure jamming:
"Wring That Neck", played live by deep purple in 1969-1970. It could be up to 30-35 mins
"No Quarter" Played Live by Led Zeppelin in 1977-1979. Usually 15-25 mins
"Dazed And Confused" Played by led zeppelin in their glory days (73-75) 30-45 mins!!!
|
|
Aaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 395
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 13:02 |
someone post a list of their top 5 improvisational songs, that aren't jams, that would make me happy
Aaron
|
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 13:06 |
Jam is a bunch of musicians who are improvising together, as a group.
|
|
|
Rorro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2005
Location: Uruguay
Status: Offline
Points: 508
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 13:09 |
I thought all improvisational songs are jams, but there are jams that hasn't got much improvisation, i heard people say that in DT's A Chasnge Of Seasons album the last songs are Jams, but they are playing songs already composed and then linking it with some arrengments.
|
|
MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21206
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 13:15 |
There are different definitions of "jam" - some more strict, some less. The most strict definition would IMO be: A bunch of musicians getting together with no plan whatsoever.
About Dream Theater: A better example would be Ytsejam. Is it a jam or not? I think it might have developed out of a jam, as most jams that end up as an album track. BTW: I know that the word has other "origins" too ...
|
|
|
Rorro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 31 2005
Location: Uruguay
Status: Offline
Points: 508
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 13:31 |
According to what i could figure out listening other people talking about it, this are my definitions:
Improvisational Song : A song that is played without being written on paper or mentally, i mean, maybe the drumm and bass invent at the moment a base of the song, then the guitar makes a riff that fits on the base, or a solo, etc, and they make a song out of nothing.
Jam: Can be an improvisational song or a song already composed, but played in a more free way, without following strictly anything but the base.
Improvisation: Is when you play a solo or a riff (or a drum solo), sometimes following the original scales but not playing the exact same notes, you go with the music.
|
|
Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 35886
|
Posted: May 11 2006 at 14:08 |
Improv/jam is extemporisation. It's unrehearsed music that is
composed or produced on the spot -- can devop new themes or 'play
around' with known themes. While jam is a colloquial term for
improvisation, one can improvise by oneself, but when jamming one is
improvising with other musicians.
|
|
|
BestFreak
Forum Groupie
Joined: April 06 2006
Location: Egypt
Status: Offline
Points: 42
|
Posted: May 12 2006 at 02:34 |
As far as I understand it, the difference is as follows :
1 - Improvization is when there is a given structure for the musical piece, with a number of bars given to the musicians to fill according to what they think fits best to the section before the the improvization and the one after it. In other words it is a little candy to the musicians to free themselves from routine.
2 - Jam is when the musicians meet and agree on nothing more than the key they are going to play in... no preset structure or melody... just freak out. In other words a big cake to destroy all fetters.
To me, I can easily differntiate between both forms when I listen to them.
I might be wrong, though. I have no monopoly on the truth of this matter.
|
All the best freaks are here!
|
|
Aaron
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 395
|
Posted: May 12 2006 at 08:31 |
i really do feel like there is a difference
i guess i consider an improvisation more progressive in that is creates a space, it is more visual, where as a jam is a little bit more about making music for music's sake
for example, i just got German Oak's s/t where they recorded an album down inside a german bunker from WWII. Maybe they had some of it rehearsed, but let's face it the first long track could not have been written this way. I feel like they had an idea in mind as to the atmosphere they were going to make with their music because of the atmosphere the bunker was giving them
Aaron
|
|
Mr. Sanchez
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 156
|
Posted: May 12 2006 at 10:27 |
Your definitions of what a Jam and what an Improvisation is sound very correct, no doubt that they are. But my understanding of the two has always been that they're almost the same thing. A Jam is a gathering where people play what they feel like at the time, it just flows as you go on. Many Jam sessions have heaps of Improv. as well as pre-meditated riffs and the like.
IMO they're basically the same thing, but everyones different.
Edited by Mr. Sanchez - May 12 2006 at 10:28
|
It's Calling Me Back To My Home.
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.