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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 17:08

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Indeed, you can't be frustrated by the lack of something you doesn't know.

And as says Mike, you can enjoy music even on the worst equipment...as long as you haven't heard better.
That what's dangerous with Hifi and there's the risk to become a junky abble of everything to get his 1000€ power cable, cause it transfigurates its system.


You know what ... I don't mind any of these comments. While writing these lines I'm listening to some cool music on my system, and life is great! You go ahead spend thousands of Euros on cables, while I use that money to buy hundreds of albums.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 03:44
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


Do you really believe that i'm fool enough to spent 500€ on a cable just because it's expensive?

Well, I'm tempted to (but will not) anwer that question.

Sorry, I can't resist to post a link to this again:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

It's foolish to believe that the cables that you showed above can do any better than simple balanced audio cables. Noise is cancelled out by a cheap €5 cable as well as by a €5000 cable.

 

 
The link posted above is interesting. I am not an over the top fanatic about audio gear. I am into it, but not to the point of spending thousands of dollars on speaker cables. I can safely say that the article is very misleading in it's bashing of audio's more sensitive issues. Hyperlitz cables do make a difference and so does bi-wiring. That can be proven easily. Hyperlitz wires vary in diameter throughout the stands and this allows  the spectrum of audio frequencies to travel along the wire best suited for that frequency. What this does is keep your impedance stable through the wire throughout the audio spectrum.
Stable impedance is very important in any wire that carries varying frequencies. Another words, the wire should not be editorializing the signal at all. Hyperlitz and wire purity and very important in this regard.
 
Bi-wiring is very effective as well. The frequencies above and below the crossover point say in a 2 way speaker system will separate and thus keeping the high frequencies directed to the high frequency transducer and the low frequencies directed to the low frequency transducer.
This keeps the low frequency signals out of the wire on route to the high frequency transducer. This produces a more stable signal with less harmonic distortion.
 
The matter of tubes is very real indeed. They have a sound signature that bi-polar transistors don't have. For one thing. Bi-polar transistors are current gain devices and tubes are voltage gain devices.
There are semi-conductors that closely mimic tubes and they are known as Field Effect Transistors (FET's). These devices are very similar in sound characteristics as tubes. Many manufacturers employ FET's instead of tubes to get that "tube" like sound. In general Bi-Polar transistors tend to be more linear but they produce even order harmonics, (well some amps more so than others) and even order harmonics are not as easy on the ear as odd order harmonic distortions which are produced by FET's and tubes. Tubes if done right have a very natural sound (lack of second order distotions) in the mid to high frequencies and they clip slowly as well. This slow clipping is not as evident as the hard clipping that occurs in bi-polar devices, thus less noticeable to the ear. Hard clipping makes thing sound very harsh. That's why a lot of transitor gear sounds so hard when the volume is turned up too high. Whatever the set-up and there are many, proper circuit design and matching of either tube or semi-conductor is critical. There is so much to this science and there are a lot of so called engineers out there that pooh pooh the whole audio thing. I know first hand that the differences are very real. It's just a matter of being smart and knowing where to draw the line. Most cheep gear employs a method known as feedback to keep circuits stable. Feed back blurs images and messes up the sound stage and adds distortion called IM Distortion or Intermediate Harmonic Distortion which is very nasty on the ears. There is a lot of scientific garble here that would take me too long to type. I know the differences exist. I can hear them.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 03:50
Indeed!!
These articles were written by jealous people!

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 03:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 04:24
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Indeed!!
These articles were written by jea
 
I think in some ways this is a bad place to discuss the pro's and con's of any audio system. Much like trying to describe the picture on my TV in words. That's why there is a problem with some reviews you read in magazines. Some gear that has been favourably reviewed has sounded awful to me.
An awful lot of the "high end" industry is full of cons, so you have to be careful.
 
The one thing that most people will surely miss with generic sound systems whether they be computer based systems or home based systems, is musicality. The very good systems have musicality. The reason is very simple. If a good engineer does his homework and really makes improvements in circuit design keeping in mind the inherent factors that cause distortions, then his or her amp, CD player, pre-amp, speaker or whatever can't help but sound better.
 
This is all common sense and anyone paying attention should surely understand this. I do know that insulting people is counter productive. It tends to widen the differences between two view points and in the end the argument becomes a mute point. It then becomes personal. I always say, "who cares what others think, it's my world and it's my perspective." 
 
I don't really care to jam anything down anybody's throat
 
lous people!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 04:48
Indeed, musicalilty is the point and you can't understand it before listening to a musical system, not necessary over expensive. Some devices are high end, very expensive and bad and not musical, such as the Magnum Dynalab receivers:

    

(whereas some are tube (the most expensive 10 000€) and still very bad, i prefer any little solid state tuner such as a little Rega, Naim or Creek).
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 04:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 04:55
^ but distortion is something which can be measured objectively. My soundcard has very low distortion, as low as many high end systems. Why can't I say "I like how it sounds" without being constantly attacked by audiophiles, accusing me either of being jealous or to have bad hearing?

IMO "musicality" is a myth anyway. Don't get me wrong - I believe that these systems sound great. I just think that the term is misleading, as it suggests that "non-musical" systems are not suitable for listening to music - like who listens to music on non-musical system is missing something. I can only once again remind people that music developed on crappy systems. People were able to enjoy music in the 50s as much as they are able to enjoy it today, on WHATEVER system.

And I'm not jealous of high end systems at all ... give me the necessary money, and I will not spend it on such a system, but on CDs instead.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:05
I've already explained you dozens of times that the measurement criterias are not pertinent:

Tubes distors less than solid state when you listen, whereas on the paper, the distorsion rate is higher.

So what's important? the theory on the paper or the result?

The explanation is the pair/unpair harmonics issue.
So distorsion rate criteria means NOTHING.

Musicality can be defined as the ability for a device "to make music", while non musical devices
are painful to listen to and don't give pleasure.

This is experience, not theory.
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 05:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:16
I like what I hear. That's also experience, oliver.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:21
I don't ask you to believe me on speech, Mike. You made your own experience, and conclude that hifi doesn't works. I was in the same stagnation, before i met my hifi master and that my life been upset by Jolida 302 tube amp.
At the time, i had a Cambridge audio amp, a Micromega CD, bad Audioquest cables, virtually no power and vib' optimization.
On another hand, i had nice Mission bookshelf on Atacama feet.
It was of course very average and disapointing.
I was feeling that something was going wrong and i was frustrated cause it was not musical at all.
    
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 05:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:26

Oh, and getting back to distortion. Generic audio equipment never lists IM distortion in it's specs. Good high end gear does. I wonder why????? Ermm

They list harmonic distortion, which can be pretty much eliminated with negative feedback which oddly enough increases Intermodulation distortion. Intermodulation distortion is "hard sounding" and rapidly brings on listener fatigue. Nasty stuff indeed!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:29
...each time you upgrade, you lower distorsion.

I.E by power filtering, this is really huge!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:30
The technical explanations are all there if anyone cares to research it.
 

I am hooked on ribbons. The best transducer I have yet to hear! Oh so sweet and oh so fast.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:33
Indeed, ribbon tweeters are the best for highs.

Tube + ribbon is the royal way in the highs.
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 05:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:49
^ so if you say all that, why did you choose the second option in my audiophile poll?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:50
Sorry? Please rephrase
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 05:58
"To come back to your poll, i voted 2, cause it was the only possible answer to this stupid (and not funny) question.

I totally agree with you that you can enjoy music through the worst equipment, like on MP3. Moreover, that's what most people do, so do it. Anyway, to listen to some noise, MP3 is highly sufficient in your case."

That's what I was referring to. Despite of the included attack ("all MER listens to is noise") you are agreeing that listening to cheap systems can be enjoyable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 06:35
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

"To come back to your poll, i voted 2, cause it was the only possible answer to this stupid (and not funny) question.

I totally agree with you that you can enjoy music through the worst equipment, like on MP3. Moreover, that's what most people do, so do it. Anyway, to listen to some noise, MP3 is highly sufficient in your case."

That's what I was referring to. Despite of the included attack ("all MER listens to is noise") you are agreeing that listening to cheap systems can be enjoyable.


Yes, except Zappa.



You can enjoy music on the worst equipment as long as you've not heard something best.

And that's the interest and perversion of (good) hifi :

-On one hand, it enables you to rediscover records when you upgrade.

-As soon as you've heard better, you want the same!
    
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 06:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 06:45
"As soon as you've heard better, you want the same! "

Not necessarily. A few weeks ago I bought a new TV set with HDTV capabilities, and I watched two HD (720p) movies. The visual quality was awesome, much more detailed than the normal DVD.

Does that mean that I'm now "spoilt" and can't enjoy watching DVDs anymore? Certainly not.

It's the same with music. Surely there are better speakers than my 70 EUR Logitech speakers. But they are better than many speaker sets which are 5 times as expensive. And with all due respect: I seriously doubt that speakers which cost 100 times more (7,000 EUR) are really 100 times better ... or to put it differently: I doubt that they would make me enjoy the music 100 times more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 06:49
You and your numbers...

There are 3€ speakers... does it means that a 300€ speaker will be 100 times better?
    

Edited by oliverstoned - April 27 2006 at 06:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2006 at 06:52
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Indeed, you can't be frustrated by the lack of something you doesn't know. And as says Mike, you can enjoy music even on the worst equipment...as long as you haven't heard better. That what's dangerous with Hifi and there's the risk to become a junky abble of everything to get his 1000€ power cable, cause it transfigurates its system.


You know what ... I don't mind any of these comments. While writing these lines I'm listening to some cool music on my system, and life is great! You go ahead spend thousands of Euros on cables, while I use that money to buy hundreds of albums.



Considering the albums, that would be better spent on cables
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