Time signatures

no because in 6/8 the eighth note gets the beat and there are 6 per measure, in 3/4 the quarter note gets the beat and there are 3 per measure.  They sound pretty much identical and may even look the same written out, but different songs require different signatures.  Usually 6/8 is used for faster songs it makes it easier to follow I think.

video vertigo wrote: no because in 6/8 the eighth note gets the beat and there are 6 per measure, in 3/4 the quarter note gets the beat and there are 3 per measure.  They sound pretty much identical and may even look the same written out, but different songs require different signatures.  Usually 6/8 is used for faster songs it makes it easier to follow I think.

Thanks, I think I got it. But what if there is 1 quarter note and 4 eighth notes, is it 6/8?

Very interesting thread! Im learning somethings about music theory

video vertigo wrote: Vompatti wrote: video vertigo wrote: no because in 6/8 the eighth note gets the beat and there are 6 per measure, in 3/4 the quarter note gets the beat and there are 3 per measure.  They sound pretty much identical and may even look the same written out, but different songs require different signatures.  Usually 6/8 is used for faster songs it makes it easier to follow I think. Thanks, I think I got it. But what if there is 1 quarter note and 4 eighth notes, is it 6/8? it could be in 6/8 because an eighth is half of a quarter. 6/8 and 3/4 usually depend more on tempo and what is easier to read with the tempo used.

Can you throw me more light on the relation between tempo and signature?
Is it possbile to slightly variate the tempo of a song without altering the signature? I think bands some times do this when they play live.

video vertigo wrote: I'm not 100% sure, but what I remember from high school music, it just made it easier to be in 6/8 with a faster tempo than it would 3/4 but wasn't entirely necessary. Anyone got a good explanation?

6/8 and 3/4 are different. in 6/8 you basically feel the pulse on beats 1 and 4 so you would count with accents:
ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six.
In 3/4 there is a pulse only on the first beat of the bar each time and on no other beat, so it's genrally faster, but not all the time. All waltzes are in 3/4.

As for tempo in relation to the time signature, I think they are both completely different and are inter changable, except it's easier to change time signature as a band if the beats are the same speed. And it's not very easy to change tempo immediatly as a band you'd have to have some way of counting in, say if you had a brak and got brung back in by the drummer or something. But i'm sure it's possible if you knew the parts well enough and were tight enough as a band.

Also another question: whats the hardest time signature anyones come across or is using in their band?

My band is currently working on a Gentle Giant/Dream Theater style instrumental with some crazy time signatures. The longest time signature we're using at the moment is 31/16 and i found that easy because i just wrote it down on a piece of paper and learnt it. It's hard to do fills with that however but i don't think there is space for them due to the insane guitar riffs which is lucky.


Edited by UnknownFlow - April 25 2006 at 16:21

I couldn't bother to read the whole thread so Im sorry if someone already worte this but:

Time signatures don't always divide into an equal amount of beats. For instance;

My band has a piece which is partially in 15/8, but But it does not divide symmetrically into 5:5:5, because it has a "polly-rythm" that makes it "divide" into a 6:3:3:3 (beats 1, 7, 10, and 13 are "emphasized")... So to those who said 9/8 always divides into 3:3:3, your utterly wrong!

Some Time Signatures that I think sound pretty cool without being over complex or not complex enough.

Watcher Of The Skies - Genesis - 6/4 that sounds bloody cool
Gentle Giant - Pantagruels Nativity (one of the sections) - 11/4
Turn it On Again - Genesis - 13/8
Jacob's Ladder - Rush - numerous time signatures including - 11/8 and 13/16

adn I'm not sure if this is right but I reckon the intro to Changes by Yes in in 9/4.


Edited by UnknownFlow - April 26 2006 at 15:01

UnknownFlow wrote: Yeah my band also has a section in where the guitarists are playing 3 bars of 5/8 and i'm playing 5 bars of 3/8 so it could also be described as 1 bar of 15/8.

Do you go back in time when you play that section?

I'd say: 2/4 means that a BAR includes a strong beat and a weak one:  ONE two     or     >  _ .
-3/4 means  strong,weak, weak   ONE two three ( > _ _ )

> strong
> less strong
_ weak

The 1st beat is called downbeat and is usually the hardest one. Other ones can also be graduated in strength but no so  stressed as  the first.
 
4/4 is usually > _ > _

The beats don't need to be single notes. 3/4 can be    > > _ _ _ _  (ONE TWO three four five six).
But  a sequence of    > _ _ > _ _  would be 6/8.
All beats are equal in duration but can be split into  any number of smaller parts: 


  3/4 =      1 . 1 . 1 . 1 .  2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 ....................


Another kind of 6/8 can be  > _ > _ > _     or  just  > _ _ _ _ _.  There are no strict rules.


7/8 can be  >_ _ > _ > _.

It's not always so simple. We can find meters like  > > _ _ _ .  It's not practical to say "(2 and a half)/4" so we can say 5/4.  In this situation an actual beat consists of 2 or 3 units.  

Meter can be constant or changing every 5 seconds or br different in every next bar.

>>_ _ _ _ > _> _ _ >> _ _    = 3  bars   3/4 + 5/8 + 2/4
 
A lot of music has random accents everywhere (not only on downbeat) . Sometimes it's difficult or impossible to tell the time signature.

So 13/8 is  like counting  1 -13 where  1 is strong  and the others  either weak or "a little strong" .  Example:     > _ _ > _ _ > _ _ >_ > _ .
Maybe we're talking about something like  > > > _ _ _ > > > _ _ _ _. , like a bar of 4/4 divided into 12 notes with an extra one.

There is no difference between "Money in 7/8" and "Money in 7/4". No one knows if a note is a half note or an 8-note.   Money is  7/4, 120 bpm = 7/2, 240 bpm = 7/8, 60 bpm.

Bpm value tells how many notes (4-notes) there are in a minute. If _ stands for 8-note, _ _ creates a 4-note but I can decide that _ is a 16- note or whole note etc.

The most popular drum pattern of 4/4  is   1. um 2. TSH 3. um 4. TSH  find in lots of rock, pop, hiphop etc. As you can see 2 and 4 are stronger here (played on snare drum). It is easy to count.
You can tap your fingers against your desk  like  > _ _ > _ _  > _ _ > _ _ and  a lot of music follows it (3/4 or 6/8, it has a feel of "swaying". "We are the champions" is in 6/8). try to count and you'll see how it works. Just practice.


Many people here go crazy about meters. They say that 4/4, 3/8 , 6/8  are "common", "simple", and 7, 9, 13, 5  are odd, complex ...They claim that 11/8 is difficult to play just because it is 11/8 . Musicians who play such things gain respect of "virtuosos". Is is wrong!!! Gripping a guitar chord and counting 1 to 17 is easy!  4/4 things can be very difficult!!


 

Vompatti wrote: This is probably a silly question, but is 6/8 the same as 3/4 and 10/8 the same as 5/4 or is there a difference?

3/4= 1   2   3   1   2   3   1   2   3   1   2   3     one beat of 3 is much stronger
6/4= 1   2   3   1   2   3   1   2   3   1   2   3     one beat of 6 is much stronger

3/8 and 6/8 in the same tempo are 2x faster. 3/8 in tempo 100 = 3/4 in tempo 200.

10 8-notes  notes in 5/4 can sound  > > _ _ > > _ _ _ _
In 10/8  > _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ or > _ _ > _ _ > _ > _ etc.

6/8 can just be like 2 bars in 3/4... some people mix that together...

Edited by Abstrakt - April 28 2006 at 09:52