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Topic ClosedRainbow and the creation of Dragon Rock.
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Stargazer View Drop Down
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rainbow and the creation of Dragon Rock.
    Posted: January 06 2006 at 20:22
Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow would make an excellent addition to the prog. metal section of this site. The first incarnation of Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow, with Ronnie James Dio and Cozy Powell, featured very innovate prog. metal, including the innovation of "dragon rock", a mixture of metal music and medieval music that bands like Iron Maiden took to new heights. Ritchie Blackmore was the first guitarist to combine heavy metal music with...Well, anything really, but more importantly with classical and medieval elements. He arguably created progressive metal, and METAL in general with his amazing shredding style. Classical and medieval influences are strewn about his early works with Deep Purple, and the first four Rainbow albums show them VERY clearly. Ritchie Blackmore was the most experimentive guitarist of his generation, and most any progressive metal band, most notably Dream Theater, have all cited Rainbow and Ritchie Blackmore amongst their top influences. I can even provide some mp3 files to put on their homepage, and I'll write up the thingy and put on a band picture and everything. I really don't understand why they already aren't on here, and the very near godfathers of progressive metal should be posted on this site.
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Tony R View Drop Down
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2006 at 20:39

I'm a big fan of pre-Bonnet Rainbow,but most of what you say is jusy plain wishful-thinking.There is quite a good case for us adding Rainbow as prog-related though.

I caught them 6 or 7 times live around the UK bit drifted away after Castle Donington.

Most seasoned proggers on this site are very familiar with Rainbow and the ahem "shredding" style of Mr Blackmore.....
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2006 at 20:46
Why exactly is it wishful thinking? Who played neo-classical style metal before him? On a side note, if you would listen to any post-Bonnet Rainbow, you would hear some pretty fast solos in there. I mean, not exactly M.A.B. or Malmsteen, but he was probably one of the first shredders. Some good songs for that are Eyes of Fire, Anybody There, Maybe Next Time, Weiss Heim, and Difficult To Cure.


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Points: 7341 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2006 at 22:31
I have never heard Rainbow before but I'm becoming a huge Deep Purple fan so I'll probabley ended up a Rainbow fan soon. From what I hear, you have a pretty good case, but I'd need to hear them.
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2006 at 22:36
Yeah, definetely go with the 5 songs I mentioned, and go with the album "Rising". "Kill The King" and "Gates of Babylon" off of Long Live Rock and Roll are great, as are "Still I'm Sad" and "Self Portrait" from their first album.
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Points: 4659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2006 at 23:21
The Temple of the King, Tarot Woman, 16th Century Greensleeves, Gates of Babylon, Lady of the Lake, Weiss Heim, all of these are at least good enough to be called "prog-related", if not "prog metal", if not for the technical skill, at least for Dio's oh-so-awesome vocals, and the better-than-hair-metal lyrics.  I personally would be willing to trade Triumph's spot for Rainbow.
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Points: 415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 04:12
They were a good band, and quite advanced for a rock band, but not enough for progressive rock , or even that pointless prog-related section. As for Blackmore "shredding", that would be the case only if you compare him to sloppy players like Jimmy Page, as he (Blackmore) did have considerable technique for a blues-rock guitarist. However, the very same Page outshone him considerably in the experimetation department.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 06:55
Rainbow are certainly the missing link between Deep Purple and Blackmore's Night, both of whom are now on the site.
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 07:08

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

I personally would be willing to trade Triumph's spot for Rainbow.

I'd trade Triumph's spot for Abba,and I used to like Triumph.....

Don't start me on about Triumph being on the archive....

Rainbow should be here under Prog-Related.Not sure they've anything to do with Prog-Metal,except maybe thematically.

 
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Points: 4659 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 08:38
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:


Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

I personally would be willing to trade Triumph's spot for Rainbow.

I'd trade Triumph's spot for Abba,and I used to like Triumph.....

Don't start me on about Triumph being on the archive....

Rainbow should be here under Prog-Related.Not sure they've anything to do with Prog-Metal,except maybe thematically.



I believe we have both made our feelings about Triumph known:
Triumph?! Are you sh**ting me?!?

'm not sure I completely agree with Easy Livin that Rainbow is a missing link between Deep Purple (proto-prog, BTW) and Night (Prog folk), since Night is nothing at all like either Deep Purple or Rainbow, and Rainbow was an on-going project during the post-formative years of Deep Purple.  Still, he makes a solid point that both of those bands are here, and the main common denominator between them is Blackmore, who was clearly the creative element in Rainbow.

And, since I have a somewhat sympathetic audience, here's a few more Triumph gems that clearly make the case for their presence here <not!>.  These guys are nothing more than walking hard-ons, as near as I can tell.  And most of these lines wouldn't even work in a singles bar...

"When you turn on your love light you burn me, but it's alright 'cause I'm hooked on you."

"Are we victims of circumstance when our destinies collide?"

"The shivers in your fingers tell no lies, I know I drive you crazy"

"I can't keep givin' you it all, not if you're gonna' tease me"

"I've always wondered what it would be like, just you and me baby"

"Take me, I'm yours for just one night"

"Let me come and lay down beside you, open up your heart"

"If only everybody wished the same things that I do, there would be hope for me and you"

"I know how to treat a lady who knows how to treat her man"

""Don't hold me up girl, don't waste my precious time - won't you lay it on the line"
"Peace is the only battle worth waging."

Albert Camus
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Points: 10063 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 08:50

Yay for Rainbow and Blackmores night!!!

Rainbow for prog realted...

 

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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:01
Tony R., they should definetely be under metal. If you've ever seen their live performances, they're WAY heavier than they are in the studio, and they definetely reach into the heavy metal range.

As for Ritchie Blackmore being a "blues-rock" player and Page being more experimentive....No. What'd page do that was progressive? Violin bows? Tuning peg vibratos? That's all of his experiments that I can even think of, he's hardly more experimental than Blackmore. Blackmore had more technicality than Page did, and he certainly wasn't "sloppy" like Page was. His post-Bonnet Rainbow stuff, and the DP reunion stuff, had some very fast solos. They weren't sloppy, and while they aren't exactly Malmsteen shredding material, he was still one of the faster players at that time.
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:21

Some of his instrumentals are wonderful-Weiss Heim,Vielleichst Das Nachste Zeit and,of course,Difficult To Cure. The classical elements he brings to his solos,as SG mentions ,are at times bewitching:Stargazer and Gates Of Babylon added to the three I have already mentioned,but he never really moves in to shredding territory.

All 4 highly recommendedThumbs Up
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:28
Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

'm not sure I completely agree with Easy Livin that Rainbow is a missing link between Deep Purple (proto-prog, BTW) and Night (Prog folk), since Night is nothing at all like either Deep Purple or Rainbow, and Rainbow was an on-going project during the post-formative years of Deep Purple.  Still, he makes a solid point that both of those bands are here, and the main common denominator between them is Blackmore, who was clearly the creative element in Rainbow.

Rainbow had an acoustic side with slight folk influences which Purple did not. Track such as "16th Century Green sleeves" and "Catch the rainbow", to name but two, point towards the direction Blackmore's Night would eventually follow.

Hey, we're on the same side though.Wink
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 13:38
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by ClemofNazareth ClemofNazareth wrote:

I personally would be willing to trade Triumph's spot for Rainbow.

I'd trade Triumph's spot for Abba,and I used to like Triumph.....

Don't start me on about Triumph being on the archive....

Rainbow should be here under Prog-Related.Not sure they've anything to do with Prog-Metal,except maybe thematically.

 

They combined classical music (baroque, rather) with metal. I think that Prog Related would be a fitting genre.
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Points: 285 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:18
I agree with the original post, except, do we really need another label? Dragon Rock.  Not to be rude Stargazer but there are way to many categories here already. I do not think descriptions hurt but some prog fans seem to be somewhat obsessive over where bands "really" belong.
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:29

Ronnie James Dio invented and developed "Dragon Rock" almost single-handed - listen to the stuff he did with Elf (before he joined Rainbow), then listen to "Heaven and Hell" (Black Sabbath) and his own band's early albums.

Every track about Rainbows, Dragons, Goblins, and other hocus pocus - and to a track, progressive. Apart from "Long Live Rock and Roll", that is...  

Ritchie Blackmore was also a very Progressive guitarist, with lots of great ideas - but when Dio left, the direction of Rainbow as a band changed totally. Conversely, when Dio joined Black Sabbath, the change to their sound overall was immediate and dramatic. It's interesting to compare his influence with that of, say, Ian Gillan...

Add Rainbow, and you'll have to consider adding Elf, Black Sabbath and Dio.

"Holy Diver" and "The Last In Line" are incredibly progressive metal albums - way ahead of, say, Queensryche...

 
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Points: 21616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:41

^ But I've read that Blackmore "ran" Rainbow like a company where he was the boss. So essentially they all had to do as he said. Which must have been the main reason for DIO to leave. I don't know why they became more mainstream after that though.

BTW: You still can't leave Prog Metal alone, can you? It's amazing how you can get from early Rainbow to Queensryche ...
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:53
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Some of his instrumentals are wonderful-Weiss Heim,Vielleichst Das Nachste Zeit and,of course,Difficult To Cure. The classical elements he brings to his solos,as SG mentions ,are at times bewitching:Stargazer and Gates Of Babylon added to the three I have already mentioned,but he never really moves in to shredding territory.

 


Okay okay fine, maybe shredding was too strong a word. He's still an incredibly techincal player, and I still think Rainbow should be moved to progressive metal, that was really what I was getting at in the first place.

Also, I didn't really mean to say we should add a new genre to the site, I was just saying that Rainbow/Dio really invented dragon rock, I don't think we should add a new section to the site.

One way or the other, I think Rainbow's first four albums would fit under prog. metal. It's definetely not something like Queensryche, as was said, but their immense influence upon the genre should get them a spot. On a side note, I have a band picture and biography written up.


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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ But I've read that Blackmore "ran" Rainbow like a company where he was the boss. So essentially they all had to do as he said. Which must have been the main reason for DIO to leave. I don't know why they became more mainstream after that though.

BTW: You still can't leave Prog Metal alone, can you? It's amazing how you can get from early Rainbow to Queensryche ...

As I've said MANY times before, I do not have anything against Prog Metal. I wouldn't listen to so much of it if I did - but the more I hear, the more I wonder where the Prog is.

It was easy to get from early Rainbow to Queensryche; Rainbow, Black Sabbath, Dio (via RJD). Holy Diver was released in 1982 and The Last In Line in 1983. 1983 was when Queensryche released their first (and definitely Non-Prog) album, so the comparison is a fair one.

Ritchie may have run Rainbow like a business, but RJD's influence is highly apparent - especially when you compare it with the other stuff he did.
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