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Topic ClosedProg Metal: Organizing the categories

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 14:20

Another major change:

I thought about how to deal with the big differences between the bands of the Experimental/Avant-Garde genre. I decided to split the genre:

  • Bands that are highly technical and complex in a direct way (in your face) ... I left those in the Experimental Prog Metal genre and combined it with the "Technical Metal" genre, which was overlapping with Experimental/Avant anyway. I added the subtitle "Ethno/Crossover/Technical".
  • I renamed the "Epic/Space" genre in the "Epic Progressive Metal" genre to Experimental/Avant-Garde ... and added the subtitle "Epic/Space/Post". I moved all the bands from the former Experimental/Avant genre there which have an epic quality ... I explained it in the genre description. It might seem awkward at first to have a band like Tool listed as "Epic Progressive Metal", but think about it a while, imagine you made a compilation from songs from the bands listed in the "Epic Progressive Metal" genre ... I think it would work.

http://uneasy-listening.com/elements/apps/mreviews/https/Pro gMetal.html



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:56

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Agree entirely. I've noticed Kayo Dot in epic though, which seems a bit odd when they're probably more out there than Maudlin of the Well were, and Maudlin are (rightfully) in avant.

I've listened to Manifold Curiosity ... sounds like the description of the Epic/Space category suggests. It's like ambient music.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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W.Chuck View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:46
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:


They are Avant/Experimental ... they're not agressive, so they don't need to be moved to Extreme.



I think they belong in the "Extremely Technical Metal"-Section, the only question I had was why did pull them out of the list?

Edited by W.Chuck

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goose View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:42
Agree entirely. I've noticed Kayo Dot in epic though, which seems a bit odd when they're probably more out there than Maudlin of the Well were, and Maudlin are (rightfully) in avant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:32

What do you guys make of the Kolios Project?

http://www.koliosproject.com/index2.htm

They're said to be an extreme band, but based on the samples I'd rather categorize them as Neo/Symphonic.



Edited by MikeEnRegalia
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Progzilla View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:29
goose, about Amorphis your quite right, I kind of forgot what they did on their last albums... . When I listened to them as I was younger, the were a epic death band. Now it's hard to find a suitable category...

I'll be gone for a week now, but it'll be very interesting to see what the chart looks like next sunday! Keep up the good work!

Edited by Progzilla
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goose View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:27
If you're including metal fusion with experimental, then I think Cynic and perhaps Atheist have got to be there - they're pretty much the founders of it, or at least very important to it. Special Defects would also fit there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:21

Originally posted by W.Chuck W.Chuck wrote:

What's with Behold...The Arctopus?
They play extreme fast math-prog-metal!
Every track is in that style.
That's why the general album length is just about 20 min


Dyrhytmia are in the same style not that fast but also very complex and mathematic (the same guy who founded Behold...The Arctopus founded Dysrhytmia)



And here are clips of BEyond Twillight :

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007UARGA/qid%3D11306 96194/028-4968772-7278143

They are Avant/Experimental ... they're not agressive, so they don't need to be moved to Extreme.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 13:15
What's with Behold...The Arctopus?
They play extreme fast math-prog-metal!
Every track is in that style.
That's why the general album length is just about 20 min


Dyrhytmia are in the same style not that fast but also very complex and mathematic (the same guy who founded Behold...The Arctopus founded Dysrhytmia)



And here are clips of BEyond Twillight :

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007UARGA/qid%3D11306 96194/028-4968772-7278143



AND ILLUSION SUITE :

YOU CAN DOWNLOAD THE WHOLE ALBUM AND THE DEMO CD => http://www.illusionsuite.net/


Edited by W.Chuck

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 12:23

Originally posted by W.Chuck W.Chuck wrote:

so Neronia either NEO or NON-METAL you agree?

Based on what you said and what I read about them, they should be moved to Neo-Prog (non-metal).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 12:22

Hi guys,

I updated the chart - I moved ALL the bands which are not in the archives to the left side. There I noted their genre, and I welcome any feedback on them - links to homepages, which category you think they would fit in, if they're prog etc. - but it's not the top priority.

The top priority is of course to sort out the bands which are in the archives - I have somewhat lost focus by bringing in other bands at this early stage, I apologize for that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 11:55
so Neronia either NEO or NON-METAL you agree?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 11:46
Oh, I'm not suggesting they don't belong on the chart by any means , I was talking about Progzilla saying they should be put in the extreme category.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 11:23

Originally posted by goose goose wrote:

Amorphis are a bit too tricky to shove in extreme - If I recall correctly their last two (?) albums have been pure neo prog (rock)... in a similar way to Anathema and a few others they've basically moved entirely away from metal, let alone extreme. I'm not sure what Mike's doing with these, though.

I added Amorphis because I saw them described as Prog Metal on several websites.

I tried to use this chart for two purposes:

  1. to find appropriate categories for prog metal bands
  2. to keep track of other metal bands which might be progressive and to select possible candidates for an addition to the archives.

I realise that many of you can't keep these two purposes apart ... I have already changed the chart to make it more obvious, and I'll move the possible additions to the top of the table completely.

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goose View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 10:46
By the way, I think Behold the Arctopus, Dysrhythmia, Watchtower, and Cynic should rather be moved to technical: the first two are instrumental, and since it tends to be heavy vocals that put people off extreme metal I'd consider the technical aspects to be the defining ones for them. For WT and Cynic, those two are considered (along with Atheist, but I agree they're more towards "normal" and so I'm happy with them in extreme) as the fathers of tech metal, and I don't think either are too extreme...



Also, Thordendal's Special Defects for avant-garde/experimental, especially with the description " a little bit confined in their choice of musical elements and not as diverse and balanced as the symphonic bands" - this i s a band with crazy saxophone solos, mostly intsrumental, not so heavy as Meshuggah, and much, much less "confined" than them. The same goes for Karaboudjan, with bizarre steel drum interludes   


Finally, I find Mekong Delta too thrashy to be very symphonic (although, playing Pictures at an Exhibition and Night on the Bare Mountain does change that a little ) I don't know where else they'd fit, but possibly power metal. Zero Hour I find more toward neo, as well.


Oops, that turned out quite a bit longer than I intended. Sorry
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goose View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 10:35
...although come to think of it, if we have genres for albums there's no problem, so it's not a big deal exactly where they end up for the time being.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 10:34
Amorphis are a bit too tricky to shove in extreme - If I recall correctly their last two (?) albums have been pure neo prog (rock)... in a similar way to Anathema and a few others they've basically moved entirely away from metal, let alone extreme. I'm not sure what Mike's doing with these, though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 10:26
Some bands not yet categorized:
  • Amorphis are not prog IMO, but it goes to the extreme category (death metal).
  • Lake of Tears is a death metal band that has a gothic/doom touch. I saw them live this summer. I find very little prog about it. But can be put in extreme for now.
  • Arachnes is quite typical power metal. Some prog elements, tough.
  • Ascension Theory and Balance of Power sound like pretty basic power prog metal.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 10:05
Well Clockwork are different from DT. Really complex and not very heavy prog but they are outmost symphonic! They are in good hands in the Symphonic section
But I don't mind you can leave them in the Neo/Symphonic Section. I think this isn't so much different from the Symphonic section.


AND FOR NERONIA :

Vergleichbar mit : Fast wie eine langweiligere Version von Jack Yello!

Besonderheiten/Stil:     HardRock; Neoprog

REZENSION:

"Ich verstehe immer nur Nero. Das war doch der römische Kaiser, der sich für einen Musiker und Dichter gehalten und deshalb viel Unheil angerichtet hat.

Als ich das neue „Neronia-Album“ zum ersten Mal hörte, ertrug ich es ebenso wenig, wie manche seiner Zeitgenossen Nero ertragen haben dürften: ich vernahm eine ganz betont rockig klingen wollende Rockigkeit und dazu eine Stimme...brrr...ich dachte, da will anscheinend Michael Sadler wie James LaBrie klingen und landet bei Aluisio Maggini, der wiederum manchmal wie Fish klingen will. Ich hab’s nicht ertragen und erst mal Shadowland gehört – schließlich hatten Nolan/Groom auch das Album vom Neronia-Vorläufer Ulysses produziert.

Nach diesem Chillout nahm ich den zweiten Anlauf – denn ewig lockt die Rezi – und holte mir von mir selbst eine zweite Meinung ein. Und die fällt nun Song by Song wie folgt aus:

„Fast way“: „You take the fast way out“ und noch mal, und wieder einmal, und es rockt von allen Seiten, aber ich kann nicht mitrocken; ‚Lasst mich mitspielen!“, könnte ich schreien, aber das machen die bestimmt nicht. Also halte ich es wieder nicht aus, Klappe, die zweite.

„In the mirror“: Wem der Song gefällt, nehme zur Kenntnis: Das ist nicht einer, das sind drei. Der erste ist rockig, der zweite heavy, der dritte lyrisch (übrigens das einzige lyrische Element des ganzen Albums). Aber es sind drei Songs – anscheinend will die Band nur längere Tracks aufnehmen, und sei’s um den Preis, dass sie Unpassendes aneinander reihen. In einem Interview las ich, der Song sei aus Jamsessions entstanden: ich vermute mal, aus drei ganz unterschiedlichen Jamsessions? Ach, egal, CDs von heute haben ja den Vorteil, dass noch viel mehr Musik drauf ist...

„One moment“: Sehr lange Zeit hindurch wird der Song von einer abfallenden Akkordfolge auf der gezupften E-Gitarre zusammengehalten, dann folgt ein sanfter Break hin zu einem floydigen Gitarrenpart und sphärischen Gebilden und zurück zum guten, ehrlichen Rock (hierzulande meistgehört?). Wenn mich erinnere (siehe Interview), dass dieser Song auch aus einer Jamsession entstanden ist (wahrscheinlich der vierten nach den drei vorausgegangenen), dann muss ich ihm zugestehen, dass er gar nicht schlecht rüberkommt: Schlichtheit ist mir lieber als bemühte Effekthascherei.

„Frost“: Der Song entstand aus einer...Nein, doch nicht schon wieder dieses böse Wort von einer Jamsession...diesmal entstand er aus eine Improvisation, das ist natürlich ganz was Anderes. Deshalb ist er nämlich auch viel langweiliger und eintöniger als das Bisherige. Womit hat man so ein Gedudel verdient? Ich meine, Pink Floyd haben wenigstens noch einen Hund jaulen lassen, wenn ihnen nichts mehr einfiel, oder jemanden mit der Fliegenklatsche durchs Treppenhaus gescheucht, aber heutzutage muss man in schöpferischen Pausen ständig RICHTIGE MUSIK hören – als wär der Tag nicht schon stressig genug.

„Naked pale“: Endlich mal was zum Mitgehen; jetzt ist Schluss mit dieser teutonischen Liebe zum schnörkel- und inhaltslosen Hardrock, jetzt werden Marillion zitiert: affektierte Flüsterstimme mit musikalischem Spannungsaufbau führen das Ohr durch den Song zu diversen Höhepunkten: kann denn Proggen Sünde sein? Im Ernst, das liegt zwar stilistisch im Bereich zwischen Anmerkungen zum „Script“ und Fish’s „Speaking in tongues“, aber irgendwas Passendes für meine Ohren hab ich hier schon lange vergeblich gesucht (das spricht nicht gegen die Platte, nur gegen die Einseitigkeit meiner Ohren!).

„Snow angels“: Kürzester Song des Albums und der erste, den die Band nach der Reunion geschrieben hat; da sind die wohl zusammengekommen und haben sich gesagt „Lasst uns doch einfach mal ’nen Song schreiben.“ Ich fürchte, das kann (fast) jeder, und so schlichtrockig klingt es auch.

„Feeling blue“: Ständig wird der Satz „I’ve been waiting for my baby“ wiederholt, im Mittelteil wieder Marillion-mäßig, am Anfang und zwischendurch im Stil eines Barhocker-Rockers; ich denke unentwegt an Roxy Music und die glitzerne Affektiertheit eines Bryan Ferry, nur nicht an dessen frühe Originalität.

„Drenched in tears“: Das ist eine Rocknummer, die mir ziemlich bekannt vorkommt; vor allem der Refrain „Drenched in tears“ deckt sich auffällig mit „In the mood“ vom gleichnamigen Rush-Song auf deren erstem Album. Die ganze Atmosphäre ist auch vergleichbar: einfachster Mitschunkel-Rock, passend für erste Versuche einer Band, verzeihlich, aber so was muss man nicht aufnehmen, wenn man auch ohne auf fünfzig Minuten kommen kann.

„She cat“: Der beste Song des Albums – und der älteste, mit Piano mal ganz anders arrangiert, mit ausgedehnten Gitarrensoli, die nicht nach Effekten haschen müssen, weil einfach die Musik gut ist. Dieser Song stammt denn auch noch aus der Endphase von Ulysses, kein Wunder.

Soweit meine Unzufriedenheit mit diesem Album, aber das ist nicht die ganze Wahrheit. Die andere Seite der Medaille ist nämlich die, dass es durchaus Spaß machen kann, solche Musik zu hören. Es stimmt mich nur skeptisch, wie sehr ich hier den Eindruck habe, dass die Band mehr nach möglichem Erfolg schielt, als dass sie einfach die Musik spielt, die ihr tatsächlich am Herzen liegt. Irgendwie steckt hier viel Kalkulation drin: mehr einfacher Hardrock (weil der in Deutschland noch nie ganz out war), dafür keine Keyboardteppiche des Oberkürschners Nolan mehr (weil die in gewisser Weise von Anfang an out waren), kurzum Musik für alle, die alles hören. Wer früher schon dem Prog immer diesen Standardvorwurf der Seelenlosigkeit gemacht hat, würde sich wahrscheinlich wundern, wenn er jetzt so was zu Gehör bekäme. Und ich glaube nicht einmal, dass Neronia damit viel Erfolg haben werden, denn auf Dauer (hoffe ich) kommt mehr Charakter und Individualität in jedem Bereich von Kultur besser an. PROG hat schließlich zum Glück nichts mit PROGramm zu tun (hoffe ich auch)..."

Edited by W.Chuck

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 30 2005 at 09:24

Originally posted by W.Chuck W.Chuck wrote:

I saw your new sections
so pls put CLOCKWORK to Symphonic now


And then NERONIA : They are a neo-prog band with hard rock influences but NON-METAL

Clockwork: I found several reviews that compared them to Dream Theater. Apparently they're quite complex, but also quite harmonic (e.g. choruses), so I placed them in Neo/Symphonic.

Neronia: So they're a band between Neo-Prog and Prog Metal? Can you post a link to a website, review or samples?

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