Prog Metal: Organizing the categories - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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horza

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:01

lets just have prog archives and list bands alphabetically

keep up the good work Mike

Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:02

stonebeard wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

maani once suggested to introduce a kind of Classic Popular Prog genre ... I would like that. Yes and Genesis would be the key bands of that genre.

It seems to me that it were to be sorted as "Classic Popular Prog" as you put it with Yes and Genesis, while avoiding bands such as Camel and VDGG, what other groups would go in this category if not bands such as Camel and VDGG? In terms of popularity, Camel and VDGG are certainly less popular than Yes or Genesis, but what other "classic" progressive rock bands are? It seems like a two-band category, needless.

Don't ask me ... I'm not an expert on the 70s. my post was only worth 2 cents, I warned you.

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:03

horza wrote:

lets just have prog archives and list bands alphabetically

keep up the good work Mike

Actually, that is my preferred setting. I don't even know what the default setting for the top navigation is ... alphabetical, I think.

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stonebeard View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:05

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

stonebeard wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

maani once suggested to introduce a kind of Classic Popular Prog genre ... I would like that. Yes and Genesis would be the key bands of that genre.

Don't ask me ... I'm not an expert on the 70s. my post was only worth 2 cents, I warned you.

That you did.

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BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:05

If there is any band that I don't think characteristic of the "Symphonic" genré, it is VdGG, and I think that at least two of their albums ("H to He" and "Pawn Hearts") much better fit into "experimental / avantgarde". And just imagine someone listening to their live album "Vital", thinking "This is symphonic Prog?" At least they should be put into a sub-genré named "dark symphonic" or the likes, but they don't fit as a perfect example of symphonic prog. Bands like Greenslade or Genesis are much better examples of "Symphonic".

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:23

^ makes sense ... and your post contains a good reason for having good genre classifications: The recommendations would be more accurate. When someone is new to the website and his favorite band is Therion, a general Prog Metal recommendation would point him to Dream Theater. But a Orchestral/Power based recommendation might point him to Symphony X ...

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Crushed Aria View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:38

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I just remember that you didn't understand that the genre Avant/Experimental was for bands that are Avant OR Experimental, not both. So you basically complained about a lot of experimental bands not being avant-garde, which made no sense to me.

Looking at pure metal sites makes not much sense, because they usually use much more fine grained categories. Separating Doom/Gothic/Black/Death/Thrash/Speed/Stoner/True/Power/Melod ic/Whatever metal would go way too far. And the Neo, Symphonic or Avant/Experimental bands often don't have an appropriate Metal genre - they're just described as "Progressive".

In my categories, Orchestral/Power maps to Symphonic Metal, Gothic, Power, Speed and Doom Metal, and the Extreme genre contains Death/Black Bands as well as Metalcore/Grindcore/Mathcore bands like DEP or Meshuggah.

I was saying that Avant-garde bands have to be ... avant-garde, alot of the bands you listed were very unexpiramental, or were expiramental but not fully original. That is what avant-garde is ... absolute originality.

I understand that metal sites may have defined the bands way too much to be of help, but posting this on M-A should get you some help, as there are plenty of Prog. Metalheads there.

In my categories, Orchestral/Power maps to Symphonic Metal, Gothic, Power, Speed and Doom Metal,

The thing is you should not categorize them so compactly, as Gothic and Doom are complete opposites of Power metal and Speed.

and the Extreme genre contains Death/Black Bands as well as Metalcore/Grindcore/Mathcore bands like DEP or Meshuggah.

Also, I understand adding extreme as a genre I really do, and it having only Death, Thrash and Black metal bands is perfect, as there are a few Progressive death thrash and black metal bands out there.

However, allowing metalcore which is more hardcore than metal onto the site would not be a smart move. DEP again are not metal, but modern hardcore. Grindcore is not metal in the slightest, it is a punk subgenre. Some bands do mix death and grindcore yeah but ... >_>

Hell adding all these categories that are making metal a bigger division on this site allow for alot more metal bands onto the site and you run the risk of it becoming a POORLY run mix between Metal-Archives and Prog Archives.

I really should hurt you for thinking even fore a second that Mathcore is a genre. =P

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:41

You share that point of view with Friede, obviously. But there IS a third alternative. Read the above post ... and then explain to me why - according to your logic - Jazz-Fusion is in the archives.

I don't believe there's a third alternative, but lets answer your question:

Jazz Fusion is here because it's the blending of two genres, Jazz and Prog Rock, Prog Metal is here because it is the blending of two genres Progressive Rock and Metal, so What's your point or logic??????

Maybe because Fusion is not as Popular as Prog Metal should not be consideresd a sub-genre?

Only to make it even more clear: Jazz/Fusion is a mixture of two words (As it is Prog Metal) and two genres (Wxactly as Prog Metal) and it's considered a subgener of Prog and probably of Jazz (as Prog Metal should be), so here is my point of view.

Jazz: A musical genre and the major influence of this sub-genre
Fusion: Meaning blend, mixture, union.

Ergo the word FUSION is replacing the word Prog in this case, but if we analize the whole term it means the union of Jazz with another genre which in this case is Progressive Rock.

But to be fair, the expression Jazz Fusion is not used, this subgenre is simply called FUSION.

Of course if your argument was true, the Jazz Fusion fans could decide to create sub-genres also:

Classic Jazz Fusion: Influenced by early Jazz, like Louis Armstrong or Duke Ellington
Blues Jazz Fusion: Blues of course is also a sub-genre of Jazz as Gothic is a sub genre of metal, then why not?
Electronic Jazz Fusion: Modern Jazz with electronic influence

And so on.

Jazz as a genre is mixed with Progressive Rock to create FUSION
Metal as a Genre is mixed with Progressive to create PROG METAL
None of them is better or more importat than the other, because in that case Symphonic Prog' being by far the most popular Prog Sub- Genre should be divided in ten or twenty sub-sub-genres.

But it's obvious some Prog Metal fans don't agree:

Mike wrote:

Others say that Prog Metal is not really a genre, but a phrase similar to Prog Rock. But the bands described by that phrase are very diverse, similarly to the diversity of the Prog Rock bands.

Then in your own words it's a new genre, because it's in the same rank as Progressive Rock which is recoignized by all music experts and fans of every genre as an independant genre.

Maidenrules wrote:

prog metal is one of the bigger subgenre and popular subgenress....it would be helpfull for prog metal fans to get it a bit split up

Oops, would be better for PROG METAL FANS TO GET A BIG SPLIT UP ???

Maidenrules doesn't talk a bout Progressive Fans, but clrearly about PROG METAL FANS, doesn't this means something?

Every Proghead here considers himself a Prog fan, we can and as a fact have preferences but I never heard about a SYMPHONIC PROG FAN or a CANTERBURY FAN, we all talk about Progheads or Prog Fans.

Mike wrote again:

When we compare this to Prog Metal, we see that no sub genres are listed ... all Prog Metal bands are crammed into one "parent genre".

Well, I don't see Symphonic, Canterbury, Fusion, Neo Prog, etc divisions WHY SHOULD PROG METAL BE DIVIDED IF NO OTHER SUB-GENRE IS?

But according to your posts, you clearly believe Prog Metal is a new genre in the same level as Progressive Rock.

So please Mike, make clear this few things and don't use evasive arguments just answer Yes or no to questions 1 and 2 then you can explain questions N° 3 or 4 (Can't stop acting as a lawter ):

Is Prog Metal a sub Genre of Progressive Rock?
Is Prog Metal a Msuical Genre as Jazz, Punk, Metal or Progressive Rock?
If you answered yes to question N° 1: Why should Prog Metal be the only sub-genre to have it's own divisions?
If you answered yes to question N° 2: What the hell are bands from another genre doing in a Progressive Rock site?

Iván

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:54

ivan_2068 wrote:

So please Mike, make clear this few things and don't use evasive arguments just answer Yes or no to questions 1 and 2 then you can explain questions N° 3 or 4 (Can't stop acting as a lawter ):

Is Prog Metal a sub Genre of Progressive Rock?
Is Prog Metal a Msuical Genre as Jazz, Punk, Metal or Progressive Rock?
If you answered yes to question N° 1: Why should Prog Metal be the only sub-genre to have it's own divisions?
If you answered yes to question N° 2: What the hell are bands from another genre doing in a Progressive Rock site?

Iván

Here you are:

Is Prog Metal a sub Genre of Progressive Rock?
No.
Is Prog Metal a Msuical Genre as Jazz, Punk, Metal or Progressive Rock?
Yes. (more precisely: It is a genre like Progressive Rock and Fusion)
If you answered yes to question N° 1: Why should Prog Metal be the only sub-genre to have it's own divisions?
If you answered yes to question N° 2: What the hell are bands from another genre doing in a Progressive Rock site?
What are Fusion bands doing on this website? Answer: They are progressive, and they are related to Rock. Prog Metal bands are also progressive, and they are related to Metal, which is related to Rock.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia

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Crushed Aria View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 18:57

... Prog metal is not a full-blown genre it is a subgenre of metal, one that has high progressive rock influences.

Prog. Rock itself isn't a genre either. It is a subgenre of rock ... >_>

BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 19:31

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here you are:

Is Prog Metal a sub Genre of Progressive Rock?
No.

Then it doesn't belong in the archives. Period.
By the way, I disagree: It is a sub-genré of progressive music, whatever the roots are, and hence it should belong in the archives. Mike is just desperately trying to hold up his case for having it split into several sub-genrés).

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 19:48

ok, the discussion ends here ... before this gets even uglier. I don't care about your opinion, Friede. I will ignore it. I think it is misguided and you are prejudiced against prog metal. You think that you have proven me wrong ... fine, I think you have proven nothing. Our posts are here for all to see, the others can decide for themselves ...

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BaldFriede View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 20:00

I am absolutely not prejudiced about prog-metal; I don't have an opinion on it, because I know it too little. What I know of it does not create a pressing need to listen to more of it, though I liked some examples; but there are more pressing issues on my wish-list of records to buy than prog-metal. I don't even doubt there are different sub-genrés within it. But as long as the main genrés like symphonic and art rock are not tackled for it, I definitely don't see the need. Period.

BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.

goose

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 20:46

But the only reason for prog metal being tackled first is that we have collaborators who're prepared to give their time to do this - perhaps symphonic prog (or krautrock, or any other genre...) is "more important", but until someone with a good knowlege of it goes to the lengths that Mike, Bryan and Jody (and others?) have, it can't be done before prog metal is! That's the only reason for it being done first*

*i.e. prog metal fans are more obsessive than symphonic fans

TheProgtologist View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 21:47

goose wrote:

But the only reason for prog metal being tackled first is that we have collaborators who're prepared to give their time to do this - perhaps symphonic prog (or krautrock, or any other genre...) is "more important", but until someone with a good knowlege of it goes to the lengths that Mike, Bryan and Jody (and others?) have, it can't be done before prog metal is! That's the only reason for it being done first*
*i.e. prog metal fans are more obsessive than symphonic fans

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU,goose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 22:08

BaldFriede wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Here you are:

Is Prog Metal a sub Genre of Progressive Rock?
No.

Can't agree more with you Bald Friedre.

Now Mike: What in hell has Fusion to do with this matter?

Fusion is in this site and every single site of the world as a sub-genre of Progressive Rock, it's listed in Prog Archives as a Sub-Genre and doesn't has any sub-genres of it's own.

You said Prog Metal is not a Progressive Rock sub-genre, so it has no place here according to your own words.

Just look at this:

Your ultimate PROG ROCK resource (Just in case you can't or don't want to read it).

Doesn't Say Prog Rock & Prog Metal or Prog Rock and other related genres, it's not a multi genre site, so no different genre than Progressive Rock (and all it's sub-genres) should be here.

But I believe it's a sub-genre and shouldn't be divided.

Mike wrote:

How easy, somebody proves this is wrong and so you just kick the board and the game is over.

I still believe this is a discussion forum

Goose wrote:

But the only reason for prog metal being tackled first is that we have collaborators who're prepared to give their time to do this

Most of the collaborators, members and reviewers are ready and have done their part here, we helped with reviews, biographies, brought new members, etc.

I know Mike Bryan and all the people invoilved in this project have done a hard job, but this doesn't mean we have to agree with everything.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

Kris_man

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 22:22

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^Kris:
's not really possible to be that specific with categorisations. Generally extreme vocals are only likely to occur in the red categories ... but they may be used occasionally by bands of the Power category, or even the Symphonic bands.
BTW: Rhapsody only used operatic vocals on one song (Lamento Eroico on Power of the Dragonflame).

But proggnosis do it!

Also, I think I must define "operatic vocals" differently to you do (I certainly don't use it in a technical sense). Or maybe I'm just getting Rhapsody mixed up with Kamelot.

Anyway, good work Mike, I'm strongly against the notion that some people here seem to have that prog metal should not be sub-divided. I'm also against people like yargh who seem to enjoy playing the devil's advocate.

Kris_man

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 22:30

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ makes sense ... and your post contains a good reason for having good genre classifications: The recommendations would be more accurate. When someone is new to the website and his favorite band is Therion, a general Prog Metal recommendation would point him to Dream Theater. But a Orchestral/Power based recommendation might point him to Symphony X ...

I'm pretty much in that boat in that I came to the site liking Dream Theater and Symphony X, each for somewhat different reasons, and I want to find other bands who can "match" these guys at their own game. My small experience in listening to prog metal is that there is a vast range of diversity within the genre (or "sub-genre" - quite frankly I don't think it matters whether it's a sub-genre or not). I'm not looking for a new style of music, rather different bands playing the same (or at least similar) style, and guys like Mike can help me do that

. Guys like ivan and baldfried would be useless to me (and no doubt a lot of other newbies)

Bryan

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 22:33

This thread has managed to depress the hell out of me. It's times like these that I wonder why I even bother. Prog-metal is listed on here, Max and Rony obviously want it here. Mike, Jody and I (although especially Mike and Jody) have put a ton of work into this to try to improve that one fraction of the site, and it's being met with nothing but criticism from prog purists who can't stand anything other than pure 70s prog having attention drawn to it. If you guys want to split symphonic, krautrock, or anything else into subgenres then fine, be our guests. Mike took the initiative to do this, just because he beat you to it is no reason to shoot him down.

I can't stand everything I (and many others) do to try to improve the prog-metal section of this site resulting in our efforts being ostracized. I'll be more than happy to just leave you guys alone so that you can all talk about symphonic prog 24/7 if you really want our metal nonsense to stop ruining the purity of your site, it's finally reaching the point where I'm no longer ready to go on fighting this losing battle. There are people here I expect these things of, but when everyone (including some people I have great respect for) starts getting on the bandwagon and relentlessly criticizing what we're trying to do for the site, the movitvation fades. I think I might need a break from this site, or at least the forum.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: October 26 2005 at 22:42

Bryan: Nobody criticizes your job, I have repeteadly admitted it's very hard.

We usually chat and we agree or disagree constantly, the fact that I disagree with spliting NOT ONLY PROG METAL BUT EVERY OTHER SUB-GENRE doesn't mean I hate Prog Metal.

We were just chatting last Sunday and if you remember I talked with you about listening metal lately. If you remnember your bewbie days we were the only ones talking about Fantomas (the band not the guy) in this site and asking for their inclusion

But when I believe something is wrong, I usually keep my opinion.

Nobody wants Prog Metal out of Prog Archive or Canterbury or Fusion or any other division, I believe we're all entitled to agree or disagree with something.

I hope you reconsider your decision to take a break, because you're doing a hard and great job, even if I disagree with division of sub-genres.

Iván