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bluetailfly 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1383
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 Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:23 |
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"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:35 |
"In that case this argument is a bit useless..."
No, the point of the argument is to explain to the people who did all of this that they did so in error. If the actual readers of a site disagree strongly with a particular direction that it is going in, yet the administrators ignore this and plow along anyway, one must wonder for whose benefit these changes were made -- the readers (which is the purpose of this site) or the administrators, who apparently are feeling very proud of themselves for having spent countless hours breaking down progressive music into little boxes that they will proceed to cram it all into, regardless of whether or not it makes any sense to do so.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:35 |
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Look at it from a pragmatic point of view: Prog-metal is only the
4th-biggest genré of prog-rock (the two biggest ones by far being
Symphonic and Art Rock, with Krautrock in third place, a little ahead
of Prog-metal). Prog-metal makes up a little more than 10% of prog.
Does logic not require that the bigger genrés should be classified
first? What I mean by this is: Prog-Metal just gets too big a spotlight
if it is divided into several sub-genrés ("Hey look! Prog-Metal is
divided into 4 sub-genrés; must be a real major ovement of prog!"),
which would be misleading for the newbie. I have nothing at all against
splitting up the genrés, but first things first, and this means
Art-Rock and Symphonic have to be tackled first. After that we can go
on and sub-divide Prog-Metal.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:40 |
 yargh wrote:
"In that case this argument is a bit useless..."
No, the point of the argument is to explain to the people who did all of this that they did so in error. If the actual readers of a site disagree strongly with a particular direction that it is going in, yet the administrators ignore this and plow along anyway, one must wonder for whose benefit these changes were made -- the readers (which is the purpose of this site) or the administrators, who apparently are feeling very proud of themselves for having spent countless hours breaking down progressive music into little boxes that they will proceed to cram it all into, regardless of whether or not it makes any sense to do so.
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This was not done in error,and you constantly saying that is getting on my last nerve.
Also...the admins didn't do this....all this work was done by collaborators.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:42 |
 Dont give up your day job.....
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:49 |
"This was not done in error,and you constantly saying that is getting on my last nerve."
Of course it was done in error. A number of the most intelligent posters on this forum have demonstrated this over the duration of the afternoon.
"Also...the admins didn't do this....all this work was done by collaborators."
Then it was the collaborators who wasted a lot of time, not the administrators.
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Ed_The_Dead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4928
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:49 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
yargh wrote:
"In that case this argument is a bit useless..."
No, the point of the argument is to explain to the people who did all of this that they did so in error. If the actual readers of a site disagree strongly with a particular direction that it is going in, yet the administrators ignore this and plow along anyway, one must wonder for whose benefit these changes were made -- the readers (which is the purpose of this site) or the administrators, who apparently are feeling very proud of themselves for having spent countless hours breaking down progressive music into little boxes that they will proceed to cram it all into, regardless of whether or not it makes any sense to do so.
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This was not done in error,and you constantly saying that is getting on my last nerve.
Also...the admins didn't do this....all this work was done by collaborators.
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Well, I posted my propositions... Do what You wish... I've had enough of this battling
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:52 |
Ed_The_Dead wrote:
Once more: Tony, did the collabs & staff allready decided that prog metal will be divided? In that case this argument is a bit useless... |
Mike was asked to look at it.He's a Special Collaborator so basically he is just doing his job,so to speak....
Oh and Ed,I am not sat at my PC monitoring every post in this thread,so repeatedly asking me to comment is a little futile. I will check it out from time to time,mainly to see that discussion remains civil,but if you wish to pose a question directly to me you should drop me a line.
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:54 |
yargh wrote:
"This was not done in error,and you constantly saying that is getting on my last nerve."
Of course it was done in error. A number of the most intelligent posters on this forum have demonstrated this over the duration of the afternoon.
"Also...the admins didn't do this....all this work was done by collaborators."
Then it was the collaborators who wasted a lot of time, not the administrators.
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Well,that's your opinion,which means nothing to me.
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:56 |
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You know, you guys really should ask a bunch of people from metal sites like M-A how to categorize the bands, it would be a good idea and show you how right I was about the Avant-garde and power metal thingy =)
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Ed_The_Dead
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 4928
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:57 |
Tony R wrote:
Ed_The_Dead wrote:
Once more: Tony, did the collabs & staff already decided that prog metal will be divided? In that case this argument is a bit useless... |
Mike was asked to look at it.He's a Special Collaborator so basically he is just doing his job,so to speak....
Oh and Ed,I am not sat at my PC monitoring every post in this thread,so repeatedly asking me to comment is a little futile. I will check it out from time to time,mainly to see that discussion remains civil,but if you wish to pose a question directly to me you should drop me a line.
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Finally I got a post back! Sometimes I had this strange feeling You were ignoring me. But Ok, I will just pm You in such cases. OR maybe I'll post a walrus pic 2 draw your attention?
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 16:59 |
Ed_The_Dead wrote:
Tony R wrote:
Ed_The_Dead wrote:
Once more: Tony, did the collabs & staff already decided that prog metal will be divided? In that case this argument is a bit useless... |
Mike was asked to look at it.He's a Special Collaborator so basically he is just doing his job,so to speak....
Oh and Ed,I am not sat at my PC monitoring every post in this thread,so repeatedly asking me to comment is a little futile. I will check it out from time to time,mainly to see that discussion remains civil,but if you wish to pose a question directly to me you should drop me a line.
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Finally I got a post back! Sometimes I had this strange feeling You were ignoring me. But Ok, I will just pm You in such cases. OR maybe I'll post a walrus pic 2 draw your attention?
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I have a control panel that alerts me to swear words,pics with filenames that could be porn and of course Walrus alerts.
OK?
Back on topic,please.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21179
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:20 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Look at it from a pragmatic point of view: Prog-metal is only the 4th-biggest genré of prog-rock (the two biggest ones by far being Symphonic and Art Rock, with Krautrock in third place, a little ahead of Prog-metal). Prog-metal makes up a little more than 10% of prog. Does logic not require that the bigger genrés should be classified first? What I mean by this is: Prog-Metal just gets too big a spotlight if it is divided into several sub-genrés ("Hey look! Prog-Metal is divided into 4 sub-genrés; must be a real major ovement of prog!"), which would be misleading for the newbie. I have nothing at all against splitting up the genrés, but first things first, and this means Art-Rock and Symphonic have to be tackled first. After that we can go on and sub-divide Prog-Metal.
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In this case it's not a matter of logic ... I would love to reorganize Symphonic Prog, Art Rock and Krautrock, but I'm not qualified for that task. Maybe you could devise some new categories, PM them to other Prog Rock experts etc. ... just like I did with prog metal.
About that highlighted bit: As I said in the beginning - it's 13 vs. 4. And yes ... Prog Metal is a major movement of prog. I don't want to split hairs here ... "only 10% of the bands are metal, so only 10% of the genres should be metal" ... come on, define some new prog genres to restore the balance if you must.
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yargh
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 421
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:26 |
TheProgtologist wrote:
Well,that's your opinion,which means nothing to me.
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But obviously it does, since it "got on your last nerve."
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21179
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:32 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
You know, you guys really should ask a bunch of people from metal sites like M-A how to categorize the bands, it would be a good idea and show you how right I was about the Avant-garde and power metal thingy =) |
I just remember that you didn't understand that the genre Avant/Experimental was for bands that are Avant OR Experimental, not both. So you basically complained about a lot of experimental bands not being avant-garde, which made no sense to me.
Looking at pure metal sites makes not much sense, because they usually use much more fine grained categories. Separating Doom/Gothic/Black/Death/Thrash/Speed/Stoner/True/Power/Melod ic/Whatever metal would go way too far. And the Neo, Symphonic or Avant/Experimental bands often don't have an appropriate Metal genre - they're just described as "Progressive".
In my categories, Orchestral/Power maps to Symphonic Metal, Gothic, Power, Speed and Doom Metal, and the Extreme genre contains Death/Black Bands as well as Metalcore/Grindcore/Mathcore bands like DEP or Meshuggah.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:38 |
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I think we have too many genrés already; why do we, for example, have
an "experimental/post rock" genré, when we already have
"RIO/Avantgarde"? Makes no sense to me at all.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:50 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Mike, unfortunately choosing the second theory also means they do not belong here. You can't have and eat your cake. If prog metal is not a genré of prog rock, then the bands belonging to it do not belong here but on a prog metal site, since this is a prog rock site.
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Did you have a look at the chart that I posted? I explained it a hundred times ... here it is again: Prog Metal is a "child" of both Prog Rock and Metal. Most relevant prog metal albums were created after 1985, and the various bands - although rooted in metal - were influenced by the various prog rock genres. The resulting music is as diverse as prog rock ... even morse so, because the different metal genres are combined with the prog rock genres. Look at a band like Opeth ... rooted in extreme metal (Death Metal is the closest approximation), but heavily influenced by 70s prog rock bands like Camel. Or look at bands like Vanden Plas or Threshold ... sometimes sounding just like a modern Neo Prog band. Or The Gathering, a band based on a Gothic/Doom metal sound, but fusing it with Progressive Electronic and Space Rock.
In a nutshell: Your logic is flawed, because it's based on the assumption that either Prog Metal is a genre of Prog Rock, or it doesn't have anything to do with it. But the world is not just black and white ... there are many (pleasant) shades of gray.
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My logic is not flawed at all. If prog-metal belongs into progressive rock, then it certainly is a sub-genré. This is a statement of the form "B follows from A", in this case "progressive rock follows from prog-metal", or, which is the same but differently put, "if a band is prog-metal, then it is also progressive rock". As everyone who is schooled in logic knows, a statement like this is true in 3 of 4 cases: Case 1: "A is true and B is true". ("This music is prog-metal, and it is progressive rock"). Case 2: "A is not true and B is true" ("This music is not prog metal, but it is prog"). Case 3: "A is not true and B is not true" ("This music is not prog-metal, and it is not prog"). The only case the whole statement would be untrue would be: "A is true and B is untrue", which in this case would be "This band is prog-metal, but it is not progressive rock".
This was some basic propositional logic; nothing new for anyone who ever studied it; for someone not schooled in logic it is not easy to see though that the statement "B follows from A" is true when A is false, no matter if B is true or not.
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"prog-metal belongs into progressive rock" ... the question we are discussing is "HOW does prog metal relate to prog rock". Common sense suggests that Prog Rock relates to Rock like Prog Metal relates to Metal. Now, if we look at the archives, we see that there is no genre "Prog Rock". Only sub genres of it are listed. When we compare this to Prog Metal, we see that no sub genres are listed ... all Prog Metal bands are crammed into one "parent genre".
How about this: "if prog metal is a sub genre of prog rock, then it should not be further divided". This statement is neither true nor false ... in my opinion, because I think that the initial statement is false. Prog Metal is influenced by Prog Rock. But Prog Metal is not contained within Prog Rock, in that Prog Metal bands are automatically Prog Rock bands. Before you use this to demand Prog Metal to be removed from the archives, remember that this also applies to some Prog Rock genres - Jazz-Fusion for instance. The sub genre is not satisfying the "is" relation ("Jazz-Fusion" is "Prog Rock"), yet it would be foolish to remove them. A genre A can be related to another genre B without A automatically being contained in B.
Do we need to continue like this ... I think we lost everyone else by now.
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That is the only argument that makes enough sense to me for me to agree with it. 
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21179
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:52 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I think we have too many genrés already; why do we, for example, have an "experimental/post rock" genré, when we already have "RIO/Avantgarde"? Makes no sense to me at all. |
Because of the Post Rock purists? Or those who insist that Avantgarde is completely different from Experimental?
Here's some ideas about the other genres ... just my 2 cents, to stir up some discussion:
- maani once suggested to introduce a kind of Classic Popular Prog genre ... I would like that. Yes and Genesis would be the key bands of that genre.
- Symphonic Prog Rock would be centered around Gentle Giant and Van der Graaf Generator.
- Fusion could be divided into Classic Fusion and Modern Fusion and maybe Avant-Fusion for really experimental Fusion artists like Gordian Knot.
- King Crimson could be moved to Art Rock and become the key band there, and the poppish prog bands like Supertramp can be moved to Prog Related.
- Some of the RIO/Avant-Prog bands like Fantomas or SGM can be moved back to (Avant/Experimental) Prog Metal.
- RIO can become a standalone genre (this would be more historically correct)
- A new genre Avant-Rock/Avant-Pop can be created for bands like Peter Gabriel, some bands of the RIO/Avant-Prog genre and also for new bands like Coheed and Cambria (many websites and magazines describe them as Avant-Rock).
- Krautrock ... well, I don't know it well enough to say something about it.
- ...
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:58 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
- maani once suggested to introduce a kind of Classic Popular Prog genre ... I would like that. Yes and Genesis would be the key bands of that genre.
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It seems to me that it were to be sorted as "Classic Popular Prog" as you put it with Yes and Genesis, while avoiding bands such as Camel and VDGG, what other groups would go in this category if not bands such as Camel and VDGG? In terms of popularity, Camel and VDGG are certainly less popular than Yes or Genesis, but what other "classic" progressive rock bands are? It seems like a two-band category, needless.
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 6667
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Posted: October 26 2005 at 17:59 |
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Prog Metal: Organizing the categories
Any more of this and I'm getting my scissors out.....
