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goose 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:21 |
I think adding "epic" to the symphonic category wouldn't be a bad idea. That's just me though 
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goose
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Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:30 |
How much time have you had to listen to all these bands, by the way? (I'm not trying to criticise the hard work, at all!) There are some I'm not sure belong where you've put them. The 3rd and the Mortal, for example, have done such a wide variety of styles throughout their releases - including something close to pure ambient textures - that I think they'd be better placed in Avant/Experimental (not just because I like them  )
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
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Points: 184
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:33 |
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That list of Avant-garde bands upsets me dearly.
ANACRUSIS Progressive Thrash =/= Avant-garde
ANATHEMA Definatly not Avant-garde, they play death doom.
ARCTURUS Okay, Post-black is accepted as avant-garde well enough.
ATHEIST Jazzy Death/Thrash is by no means Avant-garde.
CONTROL DENIED ... Progressive Power metal =/= Avant-grade.
CYNIC Same as Atheist.
DEAD SOUL TRIBE ... no. Just no.
DEP Not even metal so you can take them off.
ELECTROCUTION 250* Progressive Shred has no room.
EPHEL DUATH* Okay.
GATHERING, THE Atmospheric Death/Gothic metal doe snot mean it is Avant-garde
GREEN CARNATION Progressive metal, but definatly not Avant-garde
IN THE WOODS Questionable but it is possible.
INDUKTI* No.
KAYO DOT Definatly.
KEKAL ... maybe.
THE KOLIOS PROJECT* Wtf. >_>
LACRIMOSA Not even metal.
MAUDLIN OF THE WELL Definatly.
MCM Progy, but not avant-garde.
MESHUGGAH No way. Not a chance in hell.
OPETH Prog. Rock is by no means Avant-garde Prog. Metal.
OSI ... no.
PECCATUM Gothic metal is not Avant-garde.
POWER OF OMENS ... n/a
PSYCHOTIC WALTZ Prog yes, Avant-garde no.
SPASTIC INK Super Techy Prog Metal, not avant-garde
SPIRAL ARCHITECT ... no. Super techy but not avant-garde.
SUBTERRANEAN MASQ. Not even metal.
THORDENDAL'S SD ... n/a
TOOL Not even metal.
TOWNSEND DEVIN Different and expiramental but not avant-garde.
VENI DOMINE ... n/a
VOIVOD Err...maybe.
WATCHTOWER Technical thrash again is not avant-garde
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:35 |
Canvas Solaris are tech metal, so I suppose you'd put them in Avant/Experimental (they do have a homepage with samples, as well - I'll submit it for you  )
The Quiet Room I think would come under neo, but I have't heard them for a long time.
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 2530
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:35 |
^wish i had the time Crushed aria got on his hands  can i just ask (getting away from the point) that we get Rush out of Art Rock 
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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TheProgtologist
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
Status: Offline
Points: 27802
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:36 |
 Crushed Aria wrote:
TheProgtologist wrote:
Crushed Aria wrote:
Whatever you do do not use that list ... >_> they called Dillenger Escape Plan avant-garde. |
If you look at the description of the Avant/Experimental category,you should realize the TDEP fit it to a T.
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The reason they do not belong there is because they are not metal, that site doesn't know sh*t as to how to categorize the different bands.
Solefald, Transcending Bizarre?, etc should be in Avant-garde not DEP, who are hardcore.
That list is so full of fallacies anyways, AGALLOCH under orchestral. No. Agalloch are folk metal. If you include power in there you may as well include death metal as bands like Death went all Prog. Death later in their career.
You honestly should not classify Prog. Metal as it is too difficult a thing to do anyways. |
Well,the purpose of all this is to try categorize the bands.
And Death aren't in the archives.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:36 |
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goose: Obviously we didn't listen to the entire discography by all bands ... that's one reason why I created this thread. I'll think about 3rd and the mortal, thanks!
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:38 |
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Please you guys. Do not even attempt to categorize Prog. Metal bands unless you know a thing about Metal first.
Borknagar is not f**king power metal they are folk/viking, jesus. Orphaned Land, if I am correct the band that released Mabool, are prog. rock not metal.
v_v.
EDIT: I know Death isn't in the archives, but if you are going to allow general power metal into it you had let Death metal in as there is a definate Progressive death presence in bands like Death, Massacra, Lykathea Aflame, etc.
Edited by Crushed Aria
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:39 |
I don't see how Meshuggah's newest release isn't avant-garde, in the same way that Orthrelm is. I agree that "Avant-garde" in its literal sense doesn't really fit most of those bands (although your reduction of Anathema is about ten years out of date ) but I don't mind, because most of the bands I like got put i that category anyway
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:40 |
I'm not criticizing your work either, I know it's very hard job, but this is turning into a mainly Prog' Metal site.
The only category with 3 or 4 sub-genres will be Prog Metal.
Have you ever read the polls about which is your favorite genre? In all the cases Symphonic has won by far and If I'm not wrong Prog Metal wasn't even near, why should this barely Prog whose limits with plain metal are almost invisible should have three sub-genres.
Has any Prog sute done this ever?
I know many Metalheads will try tu crucify me plus other guys who are probably passing through a teenage metal stage, but I believe this site should be kept Prog with a sub-genre for each category.
Iván
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:43 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
Borknagar is not f**king power metal they are folk/viking, jesus.
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Well, read the f**king description at the top, then!
Crushed Aria wrote:
Orphaned Land, if I am correct the band that released Mabool, are prog. rock not metal. |
Prog rock with growling and all the instruments in unison for long stretches?
Edited by goose
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TheProgtologist
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Joined: May 23 2005
Location: Baltimore,Md US
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:43 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
Please you guys. Do not even attempt to categorize Prog. Metal bands unless you know a thing about Metal first.
Borknagar is not f**king power metal they are folk/viking, jesus. Orphaned Land, if I am correct the band that released Mabool, are prog. rock not metal.
v_v.
EDIT: I know Death isn't in the archives, but if you are going to allow general power metal into it you had let Death metal in as there is a definate Progressive death presence in bands like Death, Massacra, Lykathea Aflame, etc. |
You know what?You don't have to be so aggressive and demeaning about it.
WTF have you done lately?
Very easy to sit back and criticize.
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:46 |
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I did, and that is f**king stupid. Power metal is a legit genre and should not have it's definition changed to meet the ideas of a bunch of over-classifing prog. rock junkies >_> (Funny me calling someone over-classifying)
@goose, Meshuggah's Catch 33 isn't avant-garde because it is post-thrash ... god I hate that terminology but ... hell. Why does it matter that your favorite bands are in there, it doesn't mean anything aside from them being a certain style. That is a bit stupid.
Especially when the genre name is so far askewed from the actually definition.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:46 |
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I think "art metal" might be a more suitable name for the last category, too - in the sense that these are bands doing something artistic and original in much the same way that I assume the original meaning of art rock was applied. I'm using here the same idea as you did for neo prog metal.
Edited by goose
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MikeEnRegalia
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Joined: April 22 2005
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:46 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
I'm not criticizing your work either, I know it's very hard job, but this is turning into a mainly Prog' Metal site.
The only category with 3 or 4 sub-genres will be Prog Metal.
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Not 3 or 4 additional genres - we'll have 3 instead of 1, that's two additional genres. BTW: Prog Rock has far more genres ... 13, to be precise. That's 13 vs 3, no danger here.
ivan2068 wrote:
Have you ever read the polls about which is your favorite genre? In all the cases Symphonic has won by far and If I'm not wrong Prog Metal wasn't even near, why should this barely Prog whose limits with plain metal are almost invisible should have three sub-genres.
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I said more than once that Symphonic Prog Rock needs to be divided, Krautrock as well - and many people think this way. Go ahead!
ivan_2068 wrote:
Has any Prog sute done this ever?
I know many Metalheads will try tu crucify me plus other guys who are probably passing through a teenage metal stage, but I believe this site should be kept Prog with a sub-genre for each category.
Iván
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Why should this website not do something innovative which other prog websites haven't done?
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:47 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
I'm not criticizing your work either, I know it's very hard job, but this is turning into a mainly Prog' Metal site.
The only category with 3 or 4 sub-genres will be Prog Metal.
Have you ever read the polls about which is your favorite genre? In all the cases Symphonic has won by far and If I'm not wrong Prog Metal wasn't even near, why should this barely Prog whose limits with plain metal are almost invisible should have three sub-genres.
Has any Prog sute done this ever?
I know many Metalheads will try tu crucify me plus other guys who are probably passing through a teenage metal stage, but I believe this site should be kept Prog with a sub-genre for each category.
Iván
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Prog-Metal is just the start,Symphonic will get a makeover too.We had to start somewhere and it just so happened that Mike was prepared to donate his spare time to this venture.He has the full support of the Admin Team and all the people involved in this should be applauded.
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:48 |
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Maybe I have not done anything to help this site out, but ... I do think I have every right to correct "ignorance" towards a musical genre.
You guys are better off not adding these categories at all.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:51 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
Maybe I have not done anything to help this site out, but ... I do think I have every right to correct "ignorance" towards a musical genre.
You guys are better off not adding these categories at all. |
What's your point about the "Avant-Gard" bands anyway? Most bands in that genre are just unusual, extreme or experimental, I explained it in the table heading.
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 184
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:55 |
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My problem with it is that you were adding bands that had nothing avant-garde to them to that list.
Unusual, extreme and expiramental does not make a band avant-garde.
Wormed are certianly an unusual Death metal band, definatly extreme, and sure expiramental but they are not avant-garde.
Avant-garde is not defined by those terms, it is basically something that has never been done before, complete and total musical expiramentation.
maudlin of the Well and Kayo Dot, totally original.
Arcturus, definatly.
Ephel Duath, I have never heard ANYTHING even similar to The Painter's Palette.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: October 25 2005 at 18:55 |
You've probably had a million suggestions equally useless, but I thought I'd add one more: orchestral metal, being both the smallest and seemingly the closest to power metal or symphonic metal, could be removed without too much trouble - are there any that wouldn't fit in either of those two? Then, instead of orchestral could be added technical metal, which would fit a fair number of those that don't sit too happily in others:
DREAM THEATER,
ANDROMEDA,
ZERO HOUR,
ANACRUSIS,
ATHEIST
CONTROL DENIED
CYNIC,
OSI,
POWER OF OMENS,
SPASTIC INK
SPIRAL ARCHITECT,
WATCHTOWER.
Anyway, that's what I'd personally do, but I wish you well in however you decide to do it
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Prog Metal: Organizing the categories
