Fall of the House of Prog

I would like to challenge the idea that punk killed off prog...

The hatred was surely driven by the media, and the likes of Malcolm McClaren and John Peel (once ironically a great advocate of prog) Many 'punks' seemed to be citing prog artists as major influences, and the likes of John Lydon, Sid Viscous, Hugh Cornwell, Siouxsie all hailed from middle class backgrounds and not from the rotting tower blocks, as conquering anti heroes of the oppressed, as their friends in the media seemed to be suggesting.

With this in mind, was the fall of the empire down to a media orchestrated campaign of hatred against music as art for arts sake? If so WHY? What did the media get from get from it?

Or did the prog artists themselves simply dissapear up their own arses in a puff of pomposity, losing all touch with reality..or was that just another media myth..?

Snow Dog wrote: Or maybe a mixture of both! In some wys Punk was a good thing. If you looked at the singles charts at the time, they needed a good kick up the arse! Kids also wanted to be able to play music to and with punk it became easy to form a band. Instant self expression, it was great. OK Prog suffered, but bands were finding it difficult anyway to continue to repeat their successes. ELP virtually self distructed anyway, but even they had a major hit during the Punk years!

Punk did allow free expression and did help purge the charts of cak! Thats for sure.

The whole punk movement as it was presented to the masses was a bit of a fraud IMO. I dont believe punk started in Britain anyway. I see it as more of an American invention; with the Ramones and Iggy & the Stooges coming along some years before the likes of the Pistols. McClaren's movement seemed to simply be an attack on music full stop! Thankfully punk gave us The Stranglers, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Clash etc, which compensated for the rubbish..

Early prog efforts seemed to predict punk anyway. Hawkwind, KC and VDGG all had a kind of 'punk' spirit, and this is probably what drew John Peel to these artists in their early years, even Jethro Tull, Roxy Music, Gabriels Genesis and Queen had his stamp of approval. It was only when they started selling records he turned his back on them.

Blacksword wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Or maybe a mixture of both! In some wys Punk was a good thing. If you looked at the singles charts at the time, they needed a good kick up the arse! Kids also wanted to be able to play music to and with punk it became easy to form a band. Instant self expression, it was great. OK Prog suffered, but bands were finding it difficult anyway to continue to repeat their successes. ELP virtually self distructed anyway, but even they had a major hit during the Punk years! Punk did allow free expression and did help purge the charts of cak! Thats for sure. The whole punk movement as it was presented to the masses was a bit of a fraud IMO. I dont believe punk started in Britain anyway. I see it as more of an American invention; with the Ramones and Iggy & the Stooges coming along some years before the likes of the Pistols. McClaren's movement seemed to simply be an attack on music full stop! Thankfully punk gave us The Stranglers, Siouxsie & the Banshees, The Clash etc, which compensated for the rubbish.. Early prog efforts seemed to predict punk anyway. Hawkwind, KC and VDGG all had a kind of 'punk' spirit, and this is probably what drew John Peel to these artists in their early years, even Jethro Tull, Roxy Music, Gabriels Genesis and Queen had his stamp of approval. It was only when they started selling records he turned his back on them.

Correct, British and American Punk were entirely different things, with totally different ideals. I feel that British Punk was far more political, anarchistic and anti-establishment!

barbs wrote: Blacksword wrote: I would like to challenge the idea that punk killed off prog... The hatred was surely driven by the media, and the likes of Malcolm McClaren and John Peel (once ironically a great advocate of prog) Many 'punks' seemed to be citing prog artists as major influences, and the likes of John Lydon, Sid Viscous, Hugh Cornwell, Siouxsie all hailed from middle class backgrounds and not from the rotting tower blocks, as conquering anti heroes of the oppressed, as their friends in the media seemed to be suggesting. With this in mind, was the fall of the empire down to a media orchestrated campaign of hatred against music as art for arts sake? If so WHY? What did the media get from get from it? Or did the prog artists themselves simply dissapear up their own arses in a puff of pomposity, losing all touch with reality..or was that just another media myth..? After the protest movements of the 60s and early 70s generational change which I think in a way provided some of the climate in which prog was born as a musical movement (different, challenging the status quo, pushing the boundaries), I think there was also another movement that was born. This was the movement of 'Greed is good' which began to rise with the media through the mid 70s (check out the date of the rise of Microsoft) and I believe that it was this monster more than anything else, that attitude of success at any cost, multinational takeovers and the rise of International corporate powers.  Record companies that had at first been born to, yeah make a buck, but still foster the creative process and freedom of musical expression, also jumped on this bandwagon as they became themselves corporate monsters and I think that is why a band like Nirvana, wether you love them or hate them, represents a return of sorts to that kind of freedom. If we look at today, the technology has provided alot of bands to produce their own product from the studio floor to the outlet (often Internet) and IMO, the last 10 years has been a really exciting time for music and prog, because musicians have the power to regain their independence from the monster of corporate greed. Viva la prog.

Viva la prog indeed!

I thought Nirvana were ok, from a 'fun' point of view. They were a religion for some of their younger fans. Were they given a deal because they were good, or because some record excec thought, 'yeah, ok lets give the kids a token punk/rock band to play with. They'll make us a dump truck of money then burn out' ??

This seems to be the biggest change in trend; longevity vs short term quick buck. The big rock bands of the '70's were always in for the long haul. They wanted the career, and they DID make alot of money for their record companies. Why did the record companies suddenly decide they wanted a high turnover of artists, instead of helping the artists and working with them so they could have a career. A win win situation. The trend of fly by night (no ref to Rush!) bands was very evident in the 80's when I guess the greed ideology was at it's height.

The Internet is a real potential kick in the nuts for record companies..

GatesOfDelirium wrote: Blacksword wrote: The Internet is a real potential kick in the nuts for record companies.. Only in the sense that some artists no longer rely on the record companies to put their music out there. However, it will be a long, long, long time before prog even makes it back to the radio. The last progressive song I heard on the radio was 'The Widow' by TMV... 8 months ago.

Bare in mind Internet radio, there are prog stations out there.

I guess you're right about mainstream radio. We wont be hearing prog on BBC Radio 1 in this lifetime!

What a good thread.

Lots of interesting points raised here. It's ironic that punk began as a cottage industry with the groups forming their own labels, arranging tours with other bands, printing their own literature & magazines and promoting their activities through underground sources while the prog bands were the darlings of the major labels. It's funny how the roles were gradually swapped as the70's,  80's and 90's progressed.

I for one have no problem with this as the majority of prog fans (barring the genre Nazis who seem intent on defining every last beat and keeping each band in it's pigeon hole) seem to be happy and enthusiastic individuals who are driven by an innate love for their music.

For me, this is a golden time for Prog.