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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20251
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 Posted: April 27 2005 at 04:29 |
 Karnevil9 wrote:
I notice a lot of bickering on here over preferences regarding the same type of bands ie:YES fans don't like ELP & so on...I really can't get my head around that at all.
You can give me virtually any prog outfit wether it be Prog/Jazz,Jazz/Fusion or just plain old Prog,i'll love it all.
But what get right up my arse are these newer bands passed off or self labled as prog,this is when i start getting the big all mighty head on.If find them a total mis fit to the whole progressive scene damning them to death as i would any commecial,dance,rap sh*t etc.
Early prog in my view is the greatest form of music,for the greatest minds...be said.
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Agreed !!
Love that Cressida artwork!
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Jeremy Spade
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 04:30 |
For the benefit of those who are oblivious to satire...
This thread and the topic herein, along with my "thesis" and any other sporadic thing I might say on the subject, is purely for the purpose of humor and does not reflect my true feelings or opinions. I will continue to include my actual thoughts on the issue in a coherent manner that should be obvious to all who might agree.
If you are confused as to where my "true" thoughts begin and my sarcasm ends, please disregard everything I say from this point on.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20251
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 05:00 |
Interesting topic! Welcome Jeremy!
One of my concern about the style of music we like , is that it does appear snobbish or nerdish! This thread will not help matters whatsoever!
It seems that most progheads are happy to be nerds , intellectuals and snobs! I do not recognize myself in these character traits.
I am not a musician (I did try bass and flute and some percussion but lack the drive to get better at it) but have clearly loved this music from the age of twelve and have not cared wheteher it was cool or not, since!! I listen to many styles of music but buy mainly prog albums. What prog does is provoke reflection about music, environment , life and love etc... Most of the public do not want to think about those things : their ideals are set and going back on them is unsettling. I do not think that there are heated religious threads on rap , easy listening or Mariah forum sites. Those religious threads appearing in specialized religious forums whom are frequented by people to whom religion is their main concern. Archives forum is reflecting a wide array of subjects in non-related prog subjects because progheads like to ask ourselves questions including religion , hot dogs (sad but true) sex orientations, political ideals, favorite sodas (true too!) cars, football and ABBA! But do not think that we are the only ones doing this. We are often seen as intellectuals by others , but calling ourselves intellectuals is being snob.
Snobberry is more to do with avant-guardism than being in fashion or in tune with the times! True! But systematic denigration of what we do not like is condescending.
Popular radio has been on of my worst nemesis and would rather listen to non-musical radio (BBC radio style) or classical music radio. Clearly , if we are to listen to radio at work , it cannot be too interesting or else our attention will be drained from our jobs and productivity will decrease. This is probably why daytime radio is clearly debilitative during weekdays and partially better on WE. If Yes comes on, I will probably stop my cerebral activities directed towards my professional tasks and start listening to the music.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 776
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 05:10 |
Fantômas wrote:
Well, prog fans usually thinks their tastes is better than anyone's.
This is simply pathetic. There's nothing in the music that tells me
that Genesis is better than Sex Pistols, you wanna know why? Because
there are no parameters to point who is the best (there are to point
who's more technical, but not who's the best). In fact, just one
exists: Musical preferences. And this is totally subjective, by all
means, you can't say that progressive is musically superior. It's an
arrogant thinking. If the progressive were superior, the fans wouldn't
think this way.
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There are some relatively objective aesthetic merrits e.g. elegance,
depth, harmony, mastery... There are just different subjective ways to
achieve these.
Musical art (or any other art) is also a
craft in a way and a certain amount of skill, talent and experience is necessary
(compositional, performing...). Some young wanna-b's without any
experience, talent or knowledge can't be be taken sriously as art.
Sometimes one can clearly distinguish a raw (unworked) work (Sex
Pistols) from a
well treated (Genesis).
Oh, I was almost forgetting: To say that progressive is music and punk
no is not a question of taste. It's stupid. You really can do better
than this, boys.
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I agree! Punk is music but there is more emphasis on the message than on the music. This also tells me that Genesis is musically better because they put more effort in music. Good music requiers some effort, practise, talent...
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20251
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 05:34 |
I agree! Punk is music but there is more emphasis on the message than on the music. This also tells me that Genesis is musically better because they put more effort in music. Good music requiers some effort, practise, talent...
This is precisely the opposite of punk message and that message is valid to my eyes, too!! Punk is about anger and confusion! Rael in The Lamb On Braodway is a punk.
I actually liked the Stranglers, Police, Ramones, Clash, Jam when I was young and still do! The problem is sectarianism.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
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Jeremy Spade
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 05:56 |
While I’m not even remotely as arrogant as my condescending mockery... I have to say... I truly do believe that prog is the "best" modern music... in the same way that a V8 engine is superior to a V6. More work goes into its creation, better results are achieved from its performance. Now, obviously a V8 engine isn’t right for everyone. I wouldn’t want my grandmother driving one. She does just fine in her 4 cylinder economy car. But personally, I would enjoy the experience. Just because prog is a better offering, because of its layers, and difficulty of production, does not make it "better" in the sense of what someone should listen to.
I am not disgusted at the existence of boy bands or mega pop stars. These have their place, and I am fully willing to live and let live. What does concern me, however, is the suffocation of everything else besides. The major record labels are basically soulless money machines. They exploit bands, turn a profit, rinse and repeat. Prog bands, with their passion for originality and rebellion to the mainstream, are very difficult to control. So the major labels ignore them. Fortunately, the universe balanced itself out a bit, and made recording technology more accessible as the major labels became more corrupt. So now you have a chance. Prog bands sign with small indie labels, and when they’ve proven to fill a small profit margin, a major label might give their distribution power.
But despite good music surviving, it still faces difficult odds and the threat of extinction because of the market being flooded with processed cheese. Music is nothing more than a product to the major labels. They are primarily interested in the product that has a low risk factor and a high profit margin. Prog then becomes like the Beta video cassette. Superior in quality, but hard to market. I sympathize with Porcupine Tree when they say... "one of the wonders of the world is goin down... and no one cares..."
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20251
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 06:12 |
Problem in your satiric poll is that :
A)our tastes are not superior
B)prog since the early 80's and artistic integrity is a lure => plagiarism/cloning plagues prog also!
C) People listening to commercial music are not morons (they might have moronic musical taste , though)
D)the poll is not moronic and you are certainly no half-wit!
However your poll has one problem it remains open once you have voted. Probably on your satirical intent?
Edited by Sean Trane
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
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Jeremy Spade
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 06:28 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Problem in your satiric poll is that :
A)our tastes are not superior
B)prog since the early 80's and artistic integrity is a lure => plagiarism/cloning plagues prog also!
C) People listening to commercial music are not morons (they might have moronic musical taste , though )
D)the poll is not moronic and you are certainly no half-wit!
However your poll has one problem it remains open once you have voted. Probably on your satirical intent?
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Your points are well noted. However, I wouldn't call them a problem, but rather the reason the poll is a "satire"
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 07:34 |
Anyone who didn't understand the humor behind this thread: let's discuss it over a meal at Swift's Irish Baby Restaurant.
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 07:56 |
Oh Lord, I am a tremendous snob.
Grant me the humility to recognise my error,
And mend my errant ways.
Give me the vision to see that
Music from all quarters holds your divine light,
And is a gift from your heart to mine.
Lord help me lessen my grip on this
Young teenybopper's throat and grant me
The wisdom not to throw his worthless, Eminem buying arse from this speeding
car...
Amen.
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 776
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 08:11 |
Sean Trane wrote:
I agree! Punk is music but there is more emphasis on the message than on the music. This also tells me that Genesis is musically better because they put more effort in music. Good music requiers some effort, practise, talent...
This is precisely the
opposite of punk message and that message is valid to my eyes, too!!
Punk is about anger and confusion! Rael in The Lamb On Braodway is a
punk.
I actually liked the Stranglers, Police, Ramones, Clash, Jam when I was young and still do! The problem is sectarianism. |
Rael is maybe a punk but the anger and confusion is expressed more elegantly (artistically) than in punk music.
Postpunk is a different thing... IMO it has some esthetic value.
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Fantômas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2005
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 1859
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 13:11 |
terramystic wrote:
Fantômas wrote:
Well, prog fans usually thinks their tastes is better than anyone's.
This is simply pathetic. There's nothing in the music that tells me
that Genesis is better than Sex Pistols, you wanna know why? Because
there are no parameters to point who is the best (there are to point
who's more technical, but not who's the best). In fact, just one
exists: Musical preferences. And this is totally subjective, by all
means, you can't say that progressive is musically superior. It's an
arrogant thinking. If the progressive were superior, the fans wouldn't
think this way.
|
There are some relatively objective aesthetic merrits e.g. elegance,
depth, harmony, mastery... There are just different subjective ways to
achieve these.
Musical art (or any other art) is also a
craft in a way and a certain amount of skill, talent and experience is necessary
(compositional, performing...). Some young wanna-b's without any
experience, talent or knowledge can't be be taken sriously as art.
Sometimes one can clearly distinguish a raw (unworked) work (Sex
Pistols) from a
well treated (Genesis).
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As I said, there's no "non-relative" ways to define who's better. You
can't say that your perception of "elegance, depth, harmony, mastery"
worths more than mine, or if that is definitive to tell who's better
(If I like raw music, the quality of being raw is a point that matter
in definition of quality). In the same way, you can define for yourself
who is a young wanna be's. But that definition can, maybe, not be
the same of mine. I think that what you said justify why prog fans are
such snobs. They think their music is better for being elegant and
beautiful. But, if to you a PFM's song is beautiful, for me is just
tacky. Got it? For me, Peter Gabriel is nothing more than a "wish I
could sing, but I can't, so let me try to ruin the songs with bad
lyrics and awful vocals", but to you he may be the greatest of all...
There's nothing wrong in it. Just a question of different points of
view.
terramystic wrote:
Fantômas wrote:
Oh, I was almost forgetting: To say that progressive is music and punk
no is not a question of taste. It's stupid. You really can do better
than this, boys.
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I agree! Punk is music but there is more emphasis on the message than on the music. This also tells me that Genesis is musically better because they put more effort in music. Good music requiers some effort, practise, talent...
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Good, that tells me nothing. Technically, of course, Genesis is miles
ahead of Sex Pistols. That's not the thing. A music to be good depends
of a serial things, not only of technique (IMO). Sex Pistols is better
than Genesis musically because they're not boring, they're not
pretentious, and they're a highly energetic and sincere band. IMO.
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And above all, is punk 
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Rick4001
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 31 2005
Location: Malta
Status: Offline
Points: 26
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 14:19 |
Peter wrote:
That is sometimes true (some of the otherwise fine folks here seem to be rather narrow in their tastes and views) but it's rather a broad generalization, no? We are typically serious, dedicated music fans, but that does not necessarily mean that we like only "serious" music. I'm sure that serious fans of genres like classical, folk, traditional, (pure) country, jazz, bluegrass, early music, metal, etc., can be quite knowledgable/fanatic about their loves too.
 I was a "progsnob" in my teens, but my tastes are quite diverse now.
I like music to have heart, or at least intelligence, and those traits are by no means exclusive to prog.
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Hey I think Peter really nailed it here. Any genre of music can be good, Prog has no monopoly of "good" music. Being a Prog sob IMO simply means that one is more discerning with music - that is whatever you're listening to has got to be more fulfilling some way or another, otherwise it's not worth listening to it.
I was dubbed a "musical snob" by an English colleague (who had watched Crimson and Yes perform live in 1968 - and wasn't impressed!!!), man it made my day.
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"...seems Helen of Troy has found a new face, again ..."
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 14:27 |
sigod wrote:
Oh Lord, I am a tremendous snob.
Grant me the humility to recognise my error,
And mend my errant ways.
Give me the vision to see that
Music from all quarters holds your divine light,
And is a gift from your heart to mine.
Lord help me lessen my grip on this
Young teenybopper's throat and grant me
The wisdom not to throw his worthless, Eminem buying arse from this speeding car...
Amen.
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Oh Lord, please be an interventionalist God
and help Sigod in his prayers to make them come through,
or help him see the light that you aren't an interventionalist God
and make him choose to lessen his grip on my throat on his own account
Ameeeeeeeeeeeeeelp
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 14:28 |
Arteum wrote:
Prog listeners are intellectuals, and intellectuals do not mix up with riff-raff and imbeciles -- all intellectuals are more or less snobs. I am more |
Well I'm as thick as a timberyard full of short planks and I've got tons of prog albums, so that  that argument right up.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Reed Lover
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 14:28 |
James Lee wrote:
Anyone who didn't understand the humor behind this thread: let's discuss it over a meal at Swift's Irish Baby Restaurant.
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As usual a very modest proposal.......
well I cant help being an effete snob.
I'm just off to listen to some wonderful opuses....Low End Grin anyone?
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 14:37 |
NetsNJFan wrote:
Let's not forget Prog is looked down upon by purist Jazz and Classical music fans/snobs, since, in a way, we dilute they're music. |
We don't dilute their music--we fuse it with rock-n-roll.
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VLADO
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 06 2005
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 136
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 16:11 |
1. Snobs are fast to name something 'a crap' only because they do not like it. And you can definitely find this word and even !!!worse ones!!! in the reviews on albums which do not deserve it at all.
2. Snobs are slow to try something different.
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...and in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make...
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Autumn Dreams
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 19:02 |
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We may be snobs but so what? We have a passion for music and think it should be adventurous. These top 40 types just don't really care about music. It's just backround for them. They focus on singing and lyrics. I think we deserve to be snobs.
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Autumn Dreamer
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James Lee
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525
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Posted: April 27 2005 at 21:23 |
my favorite is the anti-snob type of snob, usually characterized by overuse of the word "pretentious" as a put-down.
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Why are prog fans such music snobs?
