Exclusionsist or Inclusivist?

It sux to even pigeonhole anything as there will always be those who will never see eye to eye on many levels, we just need a 'tag' to identify whatever it is, thus it's a catch-22, rendering my comment somewhat moot.
DSOTM is a darn fine album, even a good friend of mine who I never really thought would go for it much embraced it. That is, until his 2nd car crash, when Money was playing on the radio.......his first crash, Money was playing on the radio. True story. He can't listen to DSOTM anymore.

Dean wrote: Musicians have a tendency to openly embrace classifications at the beginning of their careers then purposely reject them later. This is understandable and to be expected - they want the recognition that being part of a "scene" brings then want freedom from it once it becomes (artistically) restricting. SWilson is a classic example of that.

Seems to me that SW went the other way.  When he started PT he did not like to be classified as Prog Rock.  But now he seems to embrace it.  That's my recollection, anyway.

Musicians have a tendency to openly embrace classifications at the beginning of their careers then purposely reject them later. This is understandable and to be expected - they want the recognition that being part of a "scene" brings then want freedom from it once it becomes (artistically) restricting. SWilson is a classic example of that.

Yeah, I temporarily forgot the Germans themselves preferred to call it "Kosmische Musik" or just refer to regional avantgarde/psychedelic scenes.

Edited by Toaster Mantis - April 17 2014 at 04:12

Toaster Mantis wrote: The thing about "post-rock" is that just like "shoegaze" or "grunge" it was originally coined by music reviewers to describe several disparate music styles and associated social subcultures that all rejected the categorization so I'm kind of uncomfortable using it as a genre classification. However, certain post-rock groups like Tortoise or Trans-Am for instance have an obvious influence from Krautrock and I think if something like Can belongs they do as well.

ExittheLemming wrote: Tom Ozric wrote: Oh ! That sort of 'pot' noodle - silly me.......... ......yes indeed, plenty of that on Topographic, and that's what makes it soooo enjoyable !! Though I couldn't see Wakeman toking on a J. Yep, Rick appears to have been an old school beer monster in his youth (which may have led to his feeling somewhat excluded from the recreational core activity of his band mates at around this time? - there is no more tortuous and futile an exchange of ideas than that which takes place between the intoxicated and the stoned)

... Parliamentary debates notwithstanding. Of course they could be both (stoned or intoxicated as well as... etc...) Sorry, could not resist that. Let's get back to defending false dichotomies. There I go again... God, I can't seem to get away from any opportunity to Sl*g off those which seek power over us.



OK, just to add fuel to the fire how does one tell that say prog rock however well, quasi or ill defined, has progressed? From what to what? Making it as good as the Prokofiev playing hear at the moment?

IOW accepting that in the late 70s there was a collapse in prog rock, was there a progression consequently, how are these things identified? To me most symphonic rock (not metal) became a style of playing (inclusivistically oriented)  rather than a sense of hearing something new (exclusionistically oriented). Should this be tried? Is it commercially viable? Should an audience be challenged?

Btw I am not that certain about the i and e word variations I have used above. As a non-expert at everything I'll stand be corrected.

King Crimson776 wrote: I don't think this question was phrased very well. It clearly makes the first option sound more viable. My answer is a mix of both. Prog has "changed", in that it has explored new areas within the boundaries of the style, but the definition of progressive music is not infinitely flexible to the point of including things that sound nothing like the original progressive bands. There is clearly a broad genre called 'prog', and there is no reason to make that term meaningless by forcing it to encompass all innovative, left-of-center rock music just because the term "progressive" literally fits that. There is no need for a term to encompass all substantially innovative rock music, period. Just for an example, I think Kayo Dot is a fine inclusion due to the avant-prog element (probably a candidate for crossover), but I think adding post-rock in general was several steps too far.

Good post certainly which I probably agree with. Yes, I could have phrased the question better but it was chosen to be deliberately provocative and indicate an either/or response was required. I wanted people to kick back against this false dichotomy and many have done so to date which is encouraging. You are correct that it's not black and white and is a bit of both i.e. Prog as broadly understood in the PA sub genres must have limits that cannot be reasonably expected to encompass every new facet and development in contemporary rock that is deemed progressive. This of course begs the question (which I implied so poorly): where do we draw these limits or do the PA members feel that doing so would be restrictive and counter productive?

I'm not familiar enough with anything that could be considered post rock to comment on its suitability for inclusion on PA or otherwise.

Wait up - I like Mogwai well enough but I'm not sure I can hear any Prog in there (maybe some Kraut, Industrial, Noise, Avant, a smidgin of Symph? and Ambient yes) Tortoise are also a band I like but sound like a retro futuristic supergrounp of (Fritz) Lang, (Raymond) Scott and (Harry) Partch.


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 17 2014 at 02:47

 ^ You can't, but you can show a musical lineage from the extant recordings made which shows influence.   However, you are correct in that most progressive musicians would still be making progressive music even if Floyd or Crimson had never existed.

No, Prog ceased circa 1969.

Oh ! That sort of 'pot' noodle - silly me..........
......yes indeed, plenty of that on Topographic, and that's what makes it soooo enjoyable !! Though I couldn't see Wakeman toking on a J.