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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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 Topic: Stripping a myth - the truth about ITCOTCK
Posted: March 18 2014 at 10:15 |
Regardless of how you feel personally, and our differences in many ideas, I do have a lot of respect for your technical articles and many of your discussions!
I don't think I would buy you a cold American beer, though. You might suspect it to be something else!
But a nice cuppatea, would be quite OK, and I will bring a Cuban Cigar along, even!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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deafmoon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 24 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 462
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Posted: March 18 2014 at 09:43 |
Yes ITCOTCK opened alot of eyes, mine included. Now go listen to Dvorak's 4th movement of the New World Symphony or Tchaikovsky's Fourth Symphony or Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and then rate ITCOTCK. For the discerning listener, you have to know the history and you cannot allow the instrumentation and orchestration of the day to put you in a label-box. Progressive Music was always right in front of our faces. And, like a needle in a haystack, it must be searched out and found. I love the thrill of the hunt!
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Deafmoon
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Prog 74
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 16 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 171
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Posted: March 17 2014 at 11:54 |
ITCOTCK is in my mind the first true Prog album. To say this song isn't prog or that song isn't prog is an exercise in futility. For it's time it was ahead of the pack. Other early Prog-related bands like the Moody Blues, Procol Harum or Deep Purple were certainly trying out new things and with a great deal of success, but when King Crimson released ITCOTCK in 1969 it was a game changer. It opened up the doors for other bands to take a more progessive path with their music.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 14:51 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 14:37 |
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What?
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 14:34 |
 Dean wrote:
I'm no longer an Admin here
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Things have improved due to that in both worlds 
Edited by The T - March 13 2014 at 14:34
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2010
Location: Serbia
Status: Offline
Points: 10213
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Posted: March 13 2014 at 14:23 |
Warthur wrote:
Here's a thought (dragging this back to the original topic): I think part of the reason that it's often meaningless to say that an album is the "first" of its genre is that if you have a gigging band that plays live then a lot of the time - and this is is definitely true of ITCOTCK - their studio albums are a reflection of what they've been getting up to live, rather than their live work being a reflection of their studio releases.Now, of course, not all bands work like this. From the late 1960s onwards you saw a gradually increasing tendency for artists to cloister themselves away to craft an album and only then premier the material live - indeed, there's plenty of studio-only projects out there which have no live component. But the "live first, then studio" process was still very much alive and well in the 1960s and the debut King Crimson album was a prime example of that - indeed, any band that does any appreciable amount of gigging before their first album typically prepares their debut album in that fashion. So really, the origin of prog almost certainly wasn't in an album at all - it was in live experiments in the field, with the early prog albums being at best records of those experiments which worked. |
I agreed. Peter Banks (RIP) said that Yes were amazed at the KC show in The Marquee Club, Steppenwolf's vocalist John Kay said "they sound like a bleeding orchestra", and the greatest thinker in Rock, Pete Townshend, said that ITCOTCK the album is "uncanny masterpiece" . That's it.
Edited by Svetonio - March 13 2014 at 14:26
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 14:36 |
moshkito wrote:
Dean wrote:
...
In closing I will state that there is one thing I do know: it is not easy to kiss my arse when I'm sat on a chair.
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Funny that you did not discuss the hijacking of the topic! I certainly was not trying to hijack the topic as I believe it is a valid one. |
As I have said before - I'm no longer an Admin here, I couldn't give a fig one way or the other about thread hijacking, in fact I oft take perverse pleasure in prolonging any tangential diversions.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17487
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 10:22 |
Dean wrote:
...
In closing I will state that there is one thing I do know: it is not easy to kiss my arse when I'm sat on a chair.
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Funny that you did not discuss the hijacking of the topic! I certainly was not trying to hijack the topic as I believe it is a valid one.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: March 12 2014 at 10:06 |
Here's a thought (dragging this back to the original topic): I think part of the reason that it's often meaningless to say that an album is the "first" of its genre is that if you have a gigging band that plays live then a lot of the time - and this is is definitely true of ITCOTCK - their studio albums are a reflection of what they've been getting up to live, rather than their live work being a reflection of their studio releases.
Now, of course, not all bands work like this. From the late 1960s onwards you saw a gradually increasing tendency for artists to cloister themselves away to craft an album and only then premier the material live - indeed, there's plenty of studio-only projects out there which have no live component. But the "live first, then studio" process was still very much alive and well in the 1960s and the debut King Crimson album was a prime example of that - indeed, any band that does any appreciable amount of gigging before their first album typically prepares their debut album in that fashion. So really, the origin of prog almost certainly wasn't in an album at all - it was in live experiments in the field, with the early prog albums being at best records of those experiments which worked.
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 841
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 19:48 |
I thought ass was an animal. A donky kind of animal. 
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:08 |
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An arse spelled incorrectly is still an ass.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:06 |
someone_else wrote:
Dean wrote:
[QUOTE=BaldFriede>That's my point: The question of "defining albums" was not addressed by her at all. And I know that she certainly does not question the influence of this album. What she speaks out against is the almost mystic aura of that album. Her message is "Keep your feet on the ground". Or to use a German expression: "Bleibt auf dem Teppich" ("stay on the carpet").[/QUOTE>If that was your point then it wasn't in your post (it certainly wasn't in mine), but never mind. Let's explain it in a language we both understand:
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Such a statement draws ItCotCK within the realm of Math Rock. That would be a myth indeed . |
yeah, Fripp didn't invent Math Rock until much later. 
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13049
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 11:06 |
lazland wrote:
Ass should always be re-written as arse. There are standards to which we should all sign up and hold dear. The perpetuation of quality English is one such icon. |
Quality English is only spoken in America. After all, we invented it. 'Sides, y'all got them thar funny accents n' such.
Edited by The Dark Elf - March 11 2014 at 11:11
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Online
Points: 13627
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 10:54 |
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Ass should always be re-written as arse. There are standards to which we should all sign up and hold dear. The perpetuation of quality English is one such icon.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 10:45 |
moshkito wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
Hi,
I'm thinking that the translation semantics are killing this thread. |
I'm thinking that a semantics is about all this thread has going for it.
moshkito wrote:
Btw, the quote should say, that it wouldn't be a chair. It should say, you probably wouldn't sit on them, and negating the need to call them "chairs". |
You cannot go around changing the words of Gilbert K, Father Brown would be most vexed. Your proposed adulteration to the quote not only completely alters the meaning, it also changes the point that Gilbert K intended it to make, (it also it renders it utterly meaningless, but that's by-the-by). The subject of the sentence is not 'a chair' but 'all chairs' - also note that Herbert G and Gilbert K used the phrase 'all chairs' and not 'every chair'. |
Thank you Dean, lone voice of reason in a world of madness.
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Oh wow ... the support of the as$kissing in a socialist place!
Gotta love it!
No one can joke, or say something different because they are heathens and Judas'.
Talk about madness, will you? |
If you insist. You can write asskissing in this forum without resorting to l33t$p3@k, of course it has yet to attain the gravitas of being a single word so ought to be hyphenated but we don't want to allow grammar nazis to spoil what is an informal mode of communication. So if you type ass-kissing it is certain that the auto-censor will remain silent; and those admins who now govern the auto-censor will not censure ass or ass-kissing unless your intent is to be offensive. And let us be honest here, it is easy to be offensive in the written word without breaking the auto-censor, and without resorting to petty name-calling or what we now like to call the ad hominem attack.
I prefer the English spelling of arse-kissing myself, but then I'm a soft-southerner who actually does pronounce the "ar" in arse, and is even prone to inserting a seemingly superfluous one in glass and grass, so your arse is grass is a rhyme for me, though ass and bass can only be for the fish and not the stringed instrument, and not even I can squeeze an "ar" sound into the pronunciation of bass, and I am resourceful enough to try, believe me.
So, let's turn to this boot that I firmly implanted in your arse since it has provoked the ire of your little pout-burst:
'Btw, the quote should say, that it wouldn't be a chair. It should say, you probably wouldn't sit on them, and negating the need to call them "chairs".'
You can change Gilbert K's quote if you like. It will no longer mean the same thing that he was saying and therefore would no longer illustrates the point that Logan was making by quoting it. If that amuses you, or makes you different, then whoop-di-do. Personally I find it to be neither, it just becomes a meaningless play on words. But I'm game for a laugh, let's give it a go:
Thus when Mr. Wells says (as he did somewhere), "All chairs are quite different," he utters not merely a misstatement, but a contradiction in terms. If all chairs were quite different, it would not be a chair, you probably wouldn't sit on them, and negating the need to call them "chairs".'
... see - to me that sounds logically wrong, a different chair is still a chair, you can sit on chairs that are different - I have lots of chairs in my house and many of them are different, and I can categorical state without fear of contradiction that "all chairs in my house can be sat upon", though it has to be said, only some of them are different, and similarly, only some of them are the same.
In closing I will state that there is one thing I do know: it is not easy to kiss my arse when I'm sat on a chair.
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: May 02 2008
Location: Going Bananas
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Points: 24293
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 10:21 |
Dean wrote:
[QUOTE=BaldFriede>That's my point: The question of "defining albums" was not addressed by her at all. And I know that she certainly does not question the influence of this album. What she speaks out against is the almost mystic aura of that album. Her message is "Keep your feet on the ground". Or to use a German expression: "Bleibt auf dem Teppich" ("stay on the carpet").[/QUOTE>If that was your point then it wasn't in your post (it certainly wasn't in mine), but never mind. Let's explain it in a language we both understand:
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Such a statement draws ItCotCK within the realm of Math Rock. That would be a myth indeed .
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Points: 20029
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 10:18 |
Xonty wrote:
You could say that loads of "successful" prog albums are just pop songs:
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Eh?
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 10:15 |
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By the way, what does the first prog album of all time win? A trophy?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: March 11 2014 at 09:11 |
Eh? No. But as I said. Never mind. 
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Stripping a myth - the truth about ITCOTCK
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