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dennismoore View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 24 2012 at 10:52
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:


Toby Driver's other project is Kayo Dot - a band i find much, much, much more enjoyable.

Choirs of the Eye > Part the Second.
Thanks Horizons,Smile
 
I just found a review from here:
 
"The guitar is of course the main element,... that lead the listener to fear and fright. Once when the music goes silent until now between the guitar and abound with violence.

... and these guys give us moments of peace when they want. But these moments are rare and in general the album is quite heavy and strong,

Yiipeesss!  Excuse me I need to go put on an old Elton John record & hide under my bed..Untill I feel safer.Embarrassed
 
I never aquired the "dark" gene in my genetic code for listening to music.  My brother loves Black Sabbath and all that death metal stuff, though... I am not sayin that your recomendation is death metal, mind you...
 
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Points: 24 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2012 at 00:25
1- Freddie Mercury  (Queen) hands down!!!
2- Rob Halford         (Judas Priest)
3- Michael Kiske      (Helloween)
4- Young James Labrie    (Dream Theater)
5- Steven Wilson      (Porcupine tree)


:D
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 21:35
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



Dude,

What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it.  We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out
why he posted that Faith No More stuff...   That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?

I will need to check out that band you posted.  That was prog. Big smile

First, listen to the rest of Part the Second.  It would probably appeal to you the most, because there are no growls.  The rest of their stuff falls more under the "post metal" tag.  After PtS, listen to Bath, as it has some harsh vocals, but only on a few songs.  Then listen to "Leaving Your Body Map" and then "My Fruit Psychobells...A Seed Combustible." 
You might be turned off by some of the growls at first, but persevere!  The music is amazing and very intricate and complex, and when the heavy moments occur, they only add to the beauty.  This is the band that turned me from a growl hater to a growl defender.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 19:20
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



Dude,

What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it.  We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out
why he posted that Faith No More stuff...   That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?

I will need to check out that band you posted.  That was prog. Big smile


I posted it because he covers a variety of styles. I would assume somebody seriously interested in vocals would not be bothered so much by the music IF they are trying to see what the singer can do.  Maybe I got that wrong.  I don't like Little River Band much, but I am not going to say therefore there's something wrong with the way John Farnham sings.   You can sort of extend that to INXS and Michael Hutchence.  
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 19:05
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



Dude,

What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it.  We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out
why he posted that Faith No More stuff...   That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?

I will need to check out that band you posted.  That was prog. Big smile

Never heard any Maudlin of the Well? Great stuff, though the record you listed to, Part the Second, is very different from their previous 3 albums.

Toby Driver's other project is Kayo Dot - a band i find much, much, much more enjoyable.

Choirs of the Eye > Part the Second.


Edited by Horizons - February 22 2012 at 19:05
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:57
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:



Dude,

What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it.  We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out
why he posted that Faith No More stuff...   That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?

I will need to check out that band you posted.  That was prog. Big smile
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:30
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

So I cannot say that I enjoy Steve Hackett's singing?
 
 
Sure you can....

So he can sing!


I will answer that in three parts +

1. Did you listen to that Bob Dylan record I gave you?
2. Your avatar change is actually quite cool. Very snappy picture
3. Are you trying to spam in this thread which I seem to have high-jacked?

+ It is considered singing(by me) as long as you don't sing along while listening, then it would become a "duet"
and there are a whole different set of rules for that.
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:20
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 
Err...what are you trying to get across with the "hope" quotes?


Well, fact is I tried to combine two things and wrap everything up here but I didn't quite pull it off.  I realized the moment this whole thing got some people's panties in a bunch was when I saw the video. Then I thought of that great quote about life being a series of moments, ok so far? Then I needed to tie in the rest of the stuff about the quote which involves chaos & all that.  I had made points in my original post about some music being so violent with screaming, etc.. so as I have preferences in general, about music that is more or less positive; I fielded a very weak attempt to connect that part of the quote to my argument.

Allow me to be the first to condemn this unholy union.

Though I will say I do believe in the power of music and I do believe it can influence in both directions.

But the truth is I really like that quote, it is from a TV series, babylon5.Smile

Hey, didn't RUSH do a song called Hope???


Edited by dennismoore - February 22 2012 at 18:23
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:36
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

So I cannot say that I enjoy Steve Hackett's singing?
 
 
Sure you can....

So he can sing!
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:33
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream?  I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money.  But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known.  Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent.  When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists.  If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special.  Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also.  It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way.  But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
 
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
 
Yes, I think you and I are getting down to it. 
 
Please do read the quote at the bottom as it pertains to "moments".. ( I do think music is most effective when it brings a message of hope...) Life is comprised of moments.  I think the moment this conversation of talent & singers got a bit testy was from a singular moment:  The moment I saw the Faith No More video with Mr. Patton.  He did his thing of combining a few commercial vocal "stylings" but what I was dumbfounded over was how simple & recycled the music in the song was.  This kinda floored me, since this forum is about progressive music.  So I needed to ask, what is going on here?  What do people see in this?  Because there was nothing "progressive" or talent laiden to the singer nor the music in regards to the bands in this forum!(Progressive Music) I try to accept all forms of music and certainly to each his own is reality.  I have no argument against bands like Green Day or Motley Crew(or the people who enjoy them), but those bands would never be considered progressive or fodder for conversation here.
 
So color me confused over that video.
 
Yeah, we just covered how the music industry is not interesting in promoting talent.  My point is certainly not a
generation thing.  I love such records as:
 
Gentle Giant - Free Hand  1975
Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom  1992
Glass Hammer - If   2010
 
I would never compare these artists to each other.  Great music can come out at any time.  About the rough vocals...who knows?  I hated Rush when I first heard Geddy's voice, but then I bought all their records just a few years later.
(@Rush fans - I have been a loyal RUSH supporter since 1980Wink)
 
 
 
"There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities – it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
 
 
 
or to keep it real simple, I would like to quote Jon Anderson:
 
"Without hope you can not start the day"
 
It is a please "rapping" with you kind sir.
 
DM
 
Err...what are you trying to get across with the "hope" quotes?  Not trying to be rude, I just didn't understand exactly what you were trying to say (don't worry, I'm not in any state approaching anger towards you...we're both Rush fans, so it's all good Smile)
I won't comment on the musical value of the Patton song, because when I watched it, I only focused on the vocals and didn't pay any attention to the rest of it LOL.  Maybe a better example of unconventional/harsh vocals in prog would be this wonderful maudlin of the Well song:
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:22
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

So I cannot say that I enjoy Steve Hackett's singing?
 
 
Sure you can, and I will send you a free Bob Dylan live at Bayone, New Jersey record to enjoy.Wink
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:06
So I cannot say that I enjoy Steve Hackett's singing?
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:03
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

,   How high can rock singing standards be anyway, technically, if Bob Dylan is considered a great singer? Tongue
 
Hi rogerthat,
 
I think you captured the essence of what I was getting at about "singers" when you mentioned Bob Dylan.
 
I don't think anybody should consider Bob Dylan to be a talented singer.  He is universally loved as a poet & songwriter.
But not as a singer.  He lacks everything that a real singer would have. I guess I made a mistake of trying to have
a discussion based on musical principles, and I ran into fans....I am sure I just pissed off the Bob Dylan crowd now.  YES, are my all time fav. band and I will defend them to the death, yet I will never claim that Steve Howe can sing...
 
Come to think of it some untra-talented musicians that can NOT sing:
 
Steve Howe
Steve Hackett
My uncle Steve(no kidding)
(most people named Steve, actually...)Wink
 
Pop artists who were/are massively famous and can not sing
 
Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tiny Tim
Stevie Nicks (hmm, another "Steve")


Edited by dennismoore - February 22 2012 at 14:24
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:40
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream?  I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money.  But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known.  Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent.  When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists.  If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special.  Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also.  It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way.  But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
 
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
 
Yes, I think you and I are getting down to it. 
 
Please do read the quote at the bottom as it pertains to "moments".. ( I do think music is most effective when it brings a message of hope...) Life is comprised of moments.  I think the moment this conversation of talent & singers got a bit testy was from a singular moment:  The moment I saw the Faith No More video with Mr. Patton.  He did his thing of combining a few commercial vocal "stylings" but what I was dumbfounded over was how simple & recycled the music in the song was.  This kinda floored me, since this forum is about progressive music.  So I needed to ask, what is going on here?  What do people see in this?  Because there was nothing "progressive" or talent laiden to the singer nor the music in regards to the bands in this forum!(Progressive Music) I try to accept all forms of music and certainly to each his own is reality.  I have no argument against bands like Green Day or Motley Crew(or the people who enjoy them), but those bands would never be considered progressive or fodder for conversation here.
 
So color me confused over that video.
 
Yeah, we just covered how the music industry is not interesting in promoting talent.  My point is certainly not a
generation thing.  I love such records as:
 
Gentle Giant - Free Hand  1975
Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom  1992
Glass Hammer - If   2010
 
I would never compare these artists to each other.  Great music can come out at any time.  About the rough vocals...who knows?  I hated Rush when I first heard Geddy's voice, but then I bought all their records just a few years later.
(@Rush fans - I have been a loyal RUSH supporter since 1980Wink)
 
 
 
"There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities – it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
 
 
 
or to keep it real simple, I would like to quote Jon Anderson:
 
"Without hope you can not start the day"
 
It is a please "rapping" with you kind sir.
 
DM
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Points: 877 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:07
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

  Rick Wakeman said,... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
 
 


Perhaps, your last line there holds the key to your own question?  Now, I have not heard of this guitarist that you say Wakeman called the next Clapton so my answer is purely hypothetical.  But do tell me what is so exciting about the next Clapton in the 21st century?  
 
Oh, no, no no, that is not what Wakeman was talking about.  You spun it into a bad thing, as in an immitation or copy
of Clapton.  Wakeman meant in terms of the "next big thing" or "next great guitarist".  God knows nobody needs
a "copy" of any musician.  I thought that goes without saying here in is forum.
 
Smile
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:49
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:


Well since the entire idea of singing seems to be producing noises with your vocal chords, Mike Patton is able to produce sounds that few others can. I'm not really sure what your argument is. The only thing you're saying is that you do not enjoy Patton, but you try to dress it up in verbiage to make it seem like your opinion is correct.
 
First, you need to look up the definition of singing or consult with some actual singers or vocal coaches. You will find
that your definition of singing is actually the definition of "speaking".  Oh and yes, I sit at a computer all day
and "dress up the verbiage to convince others that my opinions are correct".  There's quite a bit of $$$ in that, actually.Wink I think if you re-read all my comments, you'll see that I am talking about people that can actually sing VS people who are pop stars and are famous.  Bare Naked Ladies comes quickly to mind.

Really a color pyramid? I didn't define singing; I said the idea of speaking is to produce sound. If you disagree with that, then there's no point in us talking. You're talking about your narrow opinion of what you consistute as singing and further good singing. You're not trying to justify anything. You're just saying I think this so I'm right. That's fine; this all boils down to subjective stuff. Just don't try to argue with other people's choices.
 
To be clear with you.  I have nothing against Mr. Patton.  I started my post with questions about actually "singing".

Are you suggesting that those who took screaming or rap and made them popular devices did not innovate? Or that somehow they're not actually singing?

You never addressed my question, was Tiny Tim a great singer?  He did everything with his voice that you say.
 
Second: Are you suggesting coconuts migrate???  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4_9kDO3q0w
 
Oh, yes, I did suggest and I still contend that rap is not singing.

Fine rap isn't singing. But it's vocals, and the question asked us to mention top 5 vocalists. It's not harder or easier than singing. Those who rap aren't more or less talented than those who sing.

I'm not that familiar with him. He seems to be a good singer. Your question is just some straw man you set up that only makes sense to you though.

What does cadence have to do with rap? It's about the manipulation of rhythm. You're trying to interpret everything from your narrow view of music. I don't know what the point of arguing with you is. I think you've never heard a rap artist outside of the mainstream.
 
Uh, like dude,.. ":cadence" has everything to do with rap. All rap is spoken in the same redundant cadence Instead of insulting people like calling my view of music "narrow" you might wanna lean some basic facts about sound, rhythm or singing to hep you get your point accross better.  To start:
 
 
Definition 1 is not the one you used by every context clue unless you honestly want to say that every hip-hop lyric is delivered in the same manner as a marching chant. Again, if you think that, then you've listened to about 3 rap songs in your life.

Cheers,
 
DM
 
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Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

  He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
 
I am not breaking new ground here.
 

 


Perhaps, your last line there holds the key to your own question?  Now, I have not heard of this guitarist that you say Wakeman called the next Clapton so my answer is purely hypothetical.  But do tell me what is so exciting about the next Clapton in the 21st century?  Since the birth of Krautrock, emphasis has shifted gradually to rhythm, texture and ambience as the conventional functions of melody and harmony reached their logical conclusion in rock.   There is a reason why a Ralf Florian or a Brian Eno are considered revolutionary with regard to popular music.   So, really, the next Clapton....might well be old hat?   Who's the next Johnny Greenwood?  Would so want to hear, pretty please.  I am exaggerating, I would love to see a good blues guitarist in concert but what does it offer to me at all as a new studio experience.

In a nutshell, perhaps some talented musicians don't get encouragement because they have not kept pace with the changing flavours of music?  There may still be some of those who deserved recognition and were denied but that's nothing new.  The only musicians from the 60s and the 70s, practically, that we talk about are those who got to record something that fetched decent sales.  There must have been so many others who never got beyond a few gigs for no fault of their own.  At least, today they can use the internet and social media to spread word about them and get some local following even if they never hit the bigtime.   
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 19:40
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

 
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream?  I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money.  But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known.  Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent.  When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists.  If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special.  Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also.  It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way.  But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
 
I'm going to have to look up that guitar player you mentioned, btw...sounds interesting.


Exactly, the mainstream may not promote talent but it doesn't mean WE here who are into prog rock and such are judging by the standards of the mainstream today.   And it's not as if the mainstream's standards are so bad today; there are probably fewer throat singers in pop now and fewer Paul Young cases than in the 80s. Wink  Irrespective of all that, Mary Fahl, for e.g., is an incredible singer by any measure so just the fact that some of us are more open minded about harsh vocals and recognize that it does in fact require skill and is not just shouting and screaming does not mean standards for a singer today are very low.  How high can rock singing standards be anyway, technically, if Bob Dylan is considered a great singer? Tongue
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Points: 2549 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 16:34
Originally posted by dennismoore dennismoore wrote:

Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

dennismoore,

Coming from the perspective of someone who once hated harsh vocals and then grew to appreciate them, I think it's important to realize that growls/harsh vocals are one component of the music and don't define an entire artist/piece. There's a difference between "noise music" and noise in music.  Add to that the fact that harsh vocals aren't just noise; because they are made by a human voice, they can have quite a bit of emotional clout.  Portraying negative emotions in music can help listeners to restrain those emotions in real life and keep them in their proper bounds and proper direction.  This happens when the listener puts himself in the place of the performer and relates to his emotions, and it's called catharsis.  Also, harsh vocals can function as a kind of percussion; think of them as melodic percussion, in that they flow like a melody but have a percussive timbre.

With regards to the debate over modern era vs. the old days, it was neither better nor worse back then than it is now.  Each age has its own joys and sorrows, conveniences and challenges.  Technological advances have, in ways, made life better, but they also have pitfalls, including the way in which they encourage individualistic thinking.  It's chronological snobbery to try and elevate one era as better than another.

Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
 
Yes, I do think you have something with the catharsis theory. I know two very educated IT professionals with very stressful work and while at one time they enjoyed more classical music-prog, they now listen to this most hateful & screaming rock that is played at a child's level musicially.  To each his own and these two people are obviously quite happy with their current choices in music.
 
You wrote about chronological snobbery.. that would be perhaps for example, arguing the 50s & 60s.  An Elvis or a BeachBoys thing.  What is happening now compared to the glory days of prog in the 1970s is a real lack of talent.  This is not my opinion. It is from a long interview with a guy called Rick Wakman who plays an instrument and has made a few records.  He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
 
I am not breaking new ground here.
 
Oh and nobody answered my question: but I guess by today's standards for singers then in fact:
 
Tiny Tim was indeed a great singer!
 
Cheers,
 
DM
 
 
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream?  I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money.  But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known.  Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent.  When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists.  If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special.  Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also.  It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way.  But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
 
I'm going to have to look up that guitar player you mentioned, btw...sounds interesting.
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2012 at 14:54
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:

Capt Fongsby is right; they've confirmed in interviews that Geddy did the rap, though I can't think of any off the top of my head besides the ones he quoted.  I actually used to think it was Alex for some reason.  They lowered the pitch of his voice on the track, and if you raise the pitch you can hear him loud and clear: 

The fact that it's Geddy sounds so obvious. 
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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