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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greg Lake’s rant against bootlegs and piracy.
    Posted: March 13 2011 at 10:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I see. Do you think your content suffers from not having links to the appropriate YouTube video of what you are discussing? Or more importantly, does it make your text of any less value to the reader? If you are discussing a particular track then your thoughts and opinions are what is going to motivate the reader into following the link (if one exists) if he hasn't heard the track before (if they have then there is little point following it I would have thought) - it seems to me that I get more from your review of Brain Salad Surgery here on the PA than I do from your blog entry for it (which links to three WMG "removed" videos btw).
 
Merely added emphasis and a point of reference -- an extra bit of sensory stimulus like the album covers, rather than just another internet list. Is it of value? I think so, and readers do seem to appreciate the extra effort, based on e-mails and comments I received. It is unfortunate that the ELP tracks have been deleted, but the markers for the songs still remain even if (as you so kindly pointed out) the video has been removed.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 09:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Now you're puzzling me - if you've paid for the albums why would you want to listen to them on YouTube while looking at a badly pixelated scan of the cover?
I guess some of the essence of what I was discussing got lost in these circumlocutionary forum discussions.LOL
 
I use Youtube videos on my blog when discussing albums or specific songs. They help punctuate the articles and add dimension to the particular music I am discussing. They give emphasis and a point of reference, aiding readers who have never heard the particular song or album.
I see. Do you think your content suffers from not having links to the appropriate YouTube video of what you are discussing? Or more importantly, does it make your text of any less value to the reader? If you are discussing a particular track then your thoughts and opinions are what is going to motivate the reader into following the link (if one exists) if he hasn't heard the track before (if they have then there is little point following it I would have thought) - it seems to me that I get more from your review of Brain Salad Surgery here on the PA than I do from your blog entry for it (which links to three WMG "removed" videos btw).
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 09:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Now you're puzzling me - if you've paid for the albums why would you want to listen to them on YouTube while looking at a badly pixelated scan of the cover?
I guess some of the essence of what I was discussing got lost in these circumlocutionary forum discussions.LOL
 
I use Youtube videos on my blog when discussing albums or specific songs. They help punctuate the articles and add dimension to the particular music I am discussing. They give emphasis and a point of reference, aiding readers who have never heard the particular song or album.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:58
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And I agree with you in regards to it being the artist's decision. I merely question the logic.
Okay, it just seems odd that you would berate Sony for gouging money out of fans in the same breath as condemning them for not using free advertising that would boost sales.
 
I see no contradiction there. Merely pointing out perceived pettiness, in a pennywise, dollar foolish manner. 
Sony are not foolish or petty, nor are they naive. Neither are any of the other artists and labels that dislike unsolicited use of their material on YouTube or anywhere else. All of them put a lot of thought and effort into marketting, including the use of (fake) word-of-mouth, street-teams, and viral advertising - do you really think they would ignore such an obvious outlet for petty reasons?
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I suspect what we are witnessing on YouTube with Sony is not Sony or their artists removing copyright audio, but YouTube themselves so they don't compete with the official YouTube/Sony channel and hence bugger-up the Google Ad revenue stream and any corporate boardroom deals struck between them. I'm not condoning either corporation for doing this, but both are in the business of maximising profits and they are doing what big corporations will do, therefore what seems like questionable logic to you is sound business practice for them. This is evident in the blocking-by-country of much of the Sony content, which is as much to do with how Google/YouTube target advertsing and collect revenue as it is for Sony's desire to control what content can be seen in each country. Proof of this will come in the near future when (not if) YouTube introduce pay-per-view on selected content.
You could be right, but I believe it's Sony blocking the videos and not YouTube (the Sony Logo on the deletion notice leads me to believe it).
 
In any case, if YouTube goes pay-per-view, it will be unfortunate but not really unexpected.  I will not use it. In many cases, I've paid for CDs and albums once already. I will find another avenue for online research.
Now you're puzzling me - if you've paid for the albums why would you want to listen to them on YouTube while looking at a badly pixelated scan of the cover?
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:42
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

 
Out of interest what if someone posted a clip of your music, Dean, would that upset you or would you be happy someone took the time to do it as they genuinely liked your music?. Just inquiring.
I would need to be asked first or I would be very upset. I put a lot of time and effort into the two little CoL films I put on YouTube as I consider those to be part of my "Art" as much as the music and cover artwork are. If someone wanted to use my music I would have to see a portfolio of their work beforehand so I could decide for myself whether it complimented mine, and only then would I agree.
Just slap the band's album cover up on the screen and play the song already! I rarely watch the videos anyway. It's the song I want to hear. I've seen enough windblown fields, red sunsets and ocean vistas for Christ's sake. Youtube gets to be like a travel channel after a while. Wink
Ah right. So you've watched my videos then Ouch
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:21
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

 
Out of interest what if someone posted a clip of your music, Dean, would that upset you or would you be happy someone took the time to do it as they genuinely liked your music?. Just inquiring.
I would need to be asked first or I would be very upset. I put a lot of time and effort into the two little CoL films I put on YouTube as I consider those to be part of my "Art" as much as the music and cover artwork are. If someone wanted to use my music I would have to see a portfolio of their work beforehand so I could decide for myself whether it complimented mine, and only then would I agree.
Just slap the band's album cover up on the screen and play the song already! I rarely watch the videos anyway. It's the song I want to hear. I've seen enough windblown fields, red sunsets and ocean vistas for Christ's sake. Youtube gets to be like a travel channel after a while. Wink
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:16
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And I agree with you in regards to it being the artist's decision. I merely question the logic.
Okay, it just seems odd that you would berate Sony for gouging money out of fans in the same breath as condemning them for not using free advertising that would boost sales.
 
 
I see no contradiction there. Merely pointing out perceived pettiness, in a pennywise, dollar foolish manner. 
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I suspect what we are witnessing on YouTube with Sony is not Sony or their artists removing copyright audio, but YouTube themselves so they don't compete with the official YouTube/Sony channel and hence bugger-up the Google Ad revenue stream and any corporate boardroom deals struck between them. I'm not condoning either corporation for doing this, but both are in the business of maximising profits and they are doing what big corporations will do, therefore what seems like questionable logic to you is sound business practice for them. This is evident in the blocking-by-country of much of the Sony content, which is as much to do with how Google/YouTube target advertsing and collect revenue as it is for Sony's desire to control what content can be seen in each country. Proof of this will come in the near future when (not if) YouTube introduce pay-per-view on selected content.
You could be right, but I believe it's Sony blocking the videos and not YouTube (the Sony Logo on the deletion notice leads me to believe it).
 
In any case, if YouTube goes pay-per-view, it will be unfortunate but not really unexpected.  I will not use it. In many cases, I've paid for CDs and albums once already. I will find another avenue for online research.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 05:19
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

And I agree with you in regards to it being the artist's decision. I merely question the logic.
Okay, it just seems odd that you would berate Sony for gouging money out of fans in the same breath as condemning them for not using free advertising that would boost sales.
 
I suspect what we are witnessing on YouTube with Sony is not Sony or their artists removing copyright audio, but YouTube themselves so they don't compete with the official YouTube/Sony channel and hence bugger-up the Google Ad revenue stream and any corporate boardroom deals struck between them. I'm not condoning either corporation for doing this, but both are in the business of maximising profits and they are doing what big corporations will do, therefore what seems like questionable logic to you is sound business practice for them. This is evident in the blocking-by-country of much of the Sony content, which is as much to do with how Google/YouTube target advertsing and collect revenue as it is for Sony's desire to control what content can be seen in each country. Proof of this will come in the near future when (not if) YouTube introduce pay-per-view on selected content.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 03:58
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

 
Out of interest what if someone posted a clip of your music, Dean, would that upset you or would you be happy someone took the time to do it as they genuinely liked your music?. Just inquiring.
I would need to be asked first or I would be very upset. I put a lot of time and effort into the two little CoL films I put on YouTube as I consider those to be part of my "Art" as much as the music and cover artwork are. If someone wanted to use my music I would have to see a portfolio of their work beforehand so I could decide for myself whether it complimented mine, and only then would I agree.
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
Actually, I have been a proponent of having all songs available on youtube for quite some time. As you know, I use youtube clips on my blog quite often when discussing important albums or great songs, and get quite irritated when I can't locate a specific version of a song for an article. As far as I'm concerned, my blog is giving free advertising for the music I am discussing, particularly since I rarely discuss music I dislike (and I wouldn't waste time offering a youtube clip of a song I despised, in any case). I've gotten plenty of feedback from readers who love the songs and go out and purchase the artist's music.
 
It seems to me ludicrous when every Beatles, Pink Floyd, Tull, Led Zeppelin and Genesis song is available on youtube, but such artists as Bob Dylan, The Eagles and Bruce Springsteen do not have any of the studio versions of their songs available. Why? Does Sony Music feel they haven't gouged enough money out of fans? Or, like Greg Lake, do these pompous performers feel that their artistic rights have been compromised? Illegal Downloading is one thing, but checking out a band you've never heard before and finding a lost or hidden gem more often than not leads to increased record sales.
 
I don't have any statistics to go on, but I know from a personal standpoint that youtube has led me to purchase CDs (many CDs); therefore, I have to believe that a large percentage of music listeners do the same thing. You certainly can't find good music on the radio anymore (unless perhaps you subscribe to Sirius), and if you're looking for something obscure, youtube is the best place to go.
Surely it is the artist and their management's decision on how and where they should promote their material. If they don't want to use YouTube then that is their choice and their loss if people can't discover the arttists material by that route. Anyone not connected to the artist has no right or remit to arbitarily decide to publish on YouTube or a Blog a promo video or use a song as the soundtrack to an amateur slideshow (however well thought out, constructed or presented it may be).
 
And just to follow up so there is no misunderstanding, out of sheer courteousy I contacted each of those artists above in the youtube clips to make sure they were OK with it. They were more than happy for me to post them. If i removed my Roundabout clip for Yes, it would make little difference as there are hundreds, however i would be only too happy to contact the band but how do you do that? It would take forever to contact these big names and I doubt they would care one iota.
 
Out of interest what if someone posted a clip of your music, Dean, would that upset you or would you be happy someone took the time to do it as they genuinely liked your music?. Just inquiring.
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 22:02
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Surely it is the artist and their management's decision on how and where they should promote their material. If they don't want to use YouTube then that is their choice and their loss if people can't discover the arttists material by that route. Anyone not connected to the artist has no right or remit to arbitarily decide to publish on YouTube or a Blog a promo video or use a song as the soundtrack to an amateur slideshow (however well thought out, constructed or presented it may be).
 
And I agree with you in regards to it being the artist's decision. I merely question the logic.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 21:44
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 
Actually, I have been a proponent of having all songs available on youtube for quite some time. As you know, I use youtube clips on my blog quite often when discussing important albums or great songs, and get quite irritated when I can't locate a specific version of a song for an article. As far as I'm concerned, my blog is giving free advertising for the music I am discussing, particularly since I rarely discuss music I dislike (and I wouldn't waste time offering a youtube clip of a song I despised, in any case). I've gotten plenty of feedback from readers who love the songs and go out and purchase the artist's music.
 
It seems to me ludicrous when every Beatles, Pink Floyd, Tull, Led Zeppelin and Genesis song is available on youtube, but such artists as Bob Dylan, The Eagles and Bruce Springsteen do not have any of the studio versions of their songs available. Why? Does Sony Music feel they haven't gouged enough money out of fans? Or, like Greg Lake, do these pompous performers feel that their artistic rights have been compromised? Illegal Downloading is one thing, but checking out a band you've never heard before and finding a lost or hidden gem more often than not leads to increased record sales.
 
I don't have any statistics to go on, but I know from a personal standpoint that youtube has led me to purchase CDs (many CDs); therefore, I have to believe that a large percentage of music listeners do the same thing. You certainly can't find good music on the radio anymore (unless perhaps you subscribe to Sirius), and if you're looking for something obscure, youtube is the best place to go.
Surely it is the artist and their management's decision on how and where they should promote their material. If they don't want to use YouTube then that is their choice and their loss if people can't discover the arttists material by that route. Anyone not connected to the artist has no right or remit to arbitarily decide to publish on YouTube or a Blog a promo video or use a song as the soundtrack to an amateur slideshow (however well thought out, constructed or presented it may be).
 
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 21:43
^^^^Clap
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Points: 13228 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:57
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
LOLLOLLOL
so you will post this on your blog I take it!
 
Actually, I have been a proponent of having all songs available on youtube for quite some time. As you know, I use youtube clips on my blog quite often when discussing important albums or great songs, and get quite irritated when I can't locate a specific version of a song for an article. As far as I'm concerned, my blog is giving free advertising for the music I am discussing, particularly since I rarely discuss music I dislike (and I wouldn't waste time offering a youtube clip of a song I despised, in any case). I've gotten plenty of feedback from readers who love the songs and go out and purchase the artist's music.
 
It seems to me ludicrous when every Beatles, Pink Floyd, Tull, Led Zeppelin and Genesis song is available on youtube, but such artists as Bob Dylan, The Eagles and Bruce Springsteen do not have any of the studio versions of their songs available. Why? Does Sony Music feel they haven't gouged enough money out of fans? Or, like Greg Lake, do these pompous performers feel that their artistic rights have been compromised? Illegal Downloading is one thing, but checking out a band you've never heard before and finding a lost or hidden gem more often than not leads to increased record sales.
 
I don't have any statistics to go on, but I know from a personal standpoint that youtube has led me to purchase CDs (many CDs); therefore, I have to believe that a large percentage of music listeners do the same thing. You certainly can't find good music on the radio anymore (unless perhaps you subscribe to Sirius), and if you're looking for something obscure, youtube is the best place to go.
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:31
Ok heres some youtube clips I made with band's music. Listen to these...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So now you know 3 things...
1. That the band/artist actually exists
2. You have heard at least one song that the band has created.
3. Whether or not YOU like their particular music.
 
Now how has that hurt the band/s?
 
At least now they have the added exposure! (over 300 views in total for all the clips I loaded last month already)
 
And I didnt load them for that reason anyway. i loaded them becasue I enjoy making clips of prog bands. I love the music and this is my way of showing that. Its just a hobby. i am not into bootlegging, rarely get hold of bootlegs if ever, and I usually buy the albums of my favourite bands. case in point, I bought all ELPs except Love Beach and some live albums. I chose to do that. i dont think youtube could ever replace albums. I listened to Youtube clips of Astra's The Weirding, and went out immediately and bought it. Same for Frequency by IQ. I would not have done that if not for hearing them first on youtube. Its the greatest thing to hear an album and knowing you love it so you can then buy it with that safe knowledge. Is that fair enough? 
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
LOLLOLLOL
so you will post this on your blog I take it!
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:01
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by clarke2001 clarke2001 wrote:

Breaking news:

Researchers discover how to erase memory

www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-erase-memory.html


If Greg Lake finds out this, we're doomed. You paid for a ticket for a 2 hour concert, you don't have a right to remember it or tell impressions to your friends. That specific cluster of organized neuron cells in your brain is Greg's property.




I wonder if they can erase the memories of an Angelwitch gig I once attended?
Hey i would gladly swap your Angelwitch concert for my experience seeing Bob Dylan live 10 years ago.
Good ol Bob said nothing to his audience. Not even, Hi.  I went down the front with the other BD fanatics to rev him up a bit, he looked wasted,  and we even screamed out Hurricane, Blowin in the Wind or Hard Rain very loud and he ignored us all. He played NO classics... none! It was all new material none of us knew the songs, and we were shocked at how he didnt give a toss about his audience. That concert was a waste of $60....
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Points: 10679 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:45
^ although I sympathize with Mr Lake, that is brilliant !   
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Where were the thieves in ancient times
Who trampled upon my pounds so green?
And was the holy copyright
Enough to protect my concert scenes?
 
And then technology produced in time,
A slew of digital video cams --
And on youtube now I'm replayed,
Without consent, I feel that I've been scammed!
 
Bring me accountants all counting gold,
Bring me attorneys I desire,
Bring me a suit without delay --
To burn these films in a funeral pyre!
 
I will not cease to sue in court,
Nor shall my lawyers stop their demands!
Till I have filled my bank accounts
From money won from stupid, thoughtless fans!
 
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Points: 14258 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:35
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Here it is in full for those who aren’t members:

 

‘’Anyone taping shows and then distributing them to the general public is stealing. The fact that they are apparently giving these things away or "sharing them" as they sometimes like to put it is absolutely no excuse.

They are simply depriving the rightful owner of his or her rights. In the case of songs and books etc these are called "copyrights".

I suppose when this does happen it is done in a sort of Robin Hood spirit of "steal from the rich and give to the poor".

Well there are two things I would say about this.

Firstly, any performance created by an artist belongs to that artist, it is simply a property that belongs to the person who created it.

The second is, and I know this may be hard for some of the more intellectually challenged to grasp, but artists can only live and continue to create if they are paid for the work they do.

If this work is stolen and then distributed for free then artists will eventually have to stop producing.

Now it may be true that some artists are very successful and therefore make a great deal of money, but that is simply what happens in a democracy and surely that is still part of the good old American dream.

You couldn't justify stealing a computer from a store just because Gill Gates happened to be rich and the same should apply to songs and music in the same way.

The idea that everything belongs to everybody is basically communism which quite frankly has been proven not to work.

Ownership of intellectual rights, (that is songs or literature or paintings etc) is no different to anything else created by someone's hard work and endeavour.

The recording from a performance is a product pure and simple and make no mistake when you steal that product you are committing a crime. Even if you later decide to throw it, or give it away.

So all I would say to anyone who intends to tape my songs or ELP live etc and then sell them or give them away on You Tube etc, do be careful to keep your name and address a closely guarded secret because I or ELP will have no hesitation whatsoever in commencing legal proceedings against you for the recovery of our property or compensation for the loss plus any damages.

And again, to anyone so inclined, please do bear in mind that it is easy these days for anyone to track and identify an individual computer by its unique ID number.

Greg Lake.’’

What a load of Tosh!
 
Listen, Lake and anyone who agrees with this nonsense, most bands would be happy for the exposure on youtube. I for one make youtube clips for various songs I like, not ELP, and I doubt I will bother, but I have youtubed my own slide shows for several bands, some are popular, Yes, Rush, Genesis, some not so much, Total BS, Ether's Edge, Persephone's Dream, and many people have commented how they had never heard of the band and are now going to buy some of their albums. I believe its a form of free promotion and never harms anyone. Admittedly some people post entire albums on youtube, just the album cover, no slides to view, but what's wrong with listening before you buy? I love the fact you can try before you fork out your hard earned bucks as it takes the mystery out of buying a lemon, such as Love Beach!
 
I have had feedback from certain artists who have seen my clips of their work, made in love for the music nothing else, and those artists have thanked me for taking the time to post their music, they are grateful - many people commented on my channel that they enjoyed discovering new prog - so who's losing out here?
 
So Mr Lake, get your head out of your tarkarse and wake up and smell the coffee. Technology can work for you not against you. The amount of people now going to shows and recording some songs from the audience is phenomenal but how are you going to stop it? Confiscate everyone's phone? Good luck! Just accept whats happening and embrace it. ELP will gain greater exposure for every post on youtube creating more fans than when the band was actually still together.
 
 
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